Fedora Project Board Meeting (2007-05-01)

IRC only, no telephone conference
Role Call

Present: mspevack, blizzard, skvidal, stickster, jeremy, notting, mdomsch
Absent: rdieter, mether, gregdek
FESCO/Board/Sub-project governance starting with F8

Lengthy discussion about what FESCO's role and responsibilities should be
Read the IRC log (below) for all the juicy discussion
Lots of ideas discussed, no hard decisions reached
Post your thoughts to the list
EPEL

bpepple: I don't believe there's anything FESCo needs decided right now by the Board.
political problems right now with some 3rd party repos/packager's request that we add repotags--knurd will report to the list in a week or so
Next meeting

No board meeting next week due to RH Summit in San Diego.
TBD
IRC Log

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<tr id="t10:02"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> mspevack</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">who's around from the Fedora Board?</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:02" class="time">10:02</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:02"><td class="action" colspan="2">* skvidal is here</td><td><a href="#t10:02" class="time">10:02</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:03"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> mspevack</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">notting, rdieter, mdomsch, mether, stickster_afk: ping</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:03" class="time">10:03</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:03"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> mspevack</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">blizzard: ping</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:03" class="time">10:03</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:03"><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e"> mdomsch</th><td class="text" style="color: #42427e">here</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:03" class="time">10:03</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:03"><th class="nick" style="background: #818144"> skvidal</th><td class="text" style="color: #818144">and jeremy</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:03" class="time">10:03</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:03"><th class="nick" style="background: #854685"> notting</th><td class="text" style="color: #854685">here</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:03" class="time">10:03</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:03"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> mspevack</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">we'll wait a min or two for some pongs</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:03" class="time">10:03</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:03"><td class="action" colspan="2">* jeremy is here</td><td><a href="#t10:03" class="time">10:03</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:04"><th class="nick" style="background: #818144"> skvidal</th><td class="text" style="color: #818144">|      .        |</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:04" class="time">10:04</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:04"><th class="nick" style="background: #818144"> skvidal</th><td class="text" style="color: #818144">|    .          |</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:04" class="time">10:04</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:04"><th class="nick" style="background: #488888"> blizzard</th><td class="text" style="color: #488888">mspevack: hang on</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:04" class="time">10:04</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:04"><td class="action" colspan="2">* skvidal shows some pongs</td><td><a href="#t10:04" class="time">10:04</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:04"><th class="nick" style="background: #854685"> notting</th><td class="text" style="color: #854685">skvidal: *blip* *blip*</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:04" class="time">10:04</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:04"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> mspevack</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">skvidal: maybe you can get a new job as a full time ASCII artist!</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:04" class="time">10:04</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:05"><th class="nick" style="background: #818144"> skvidal</th><td class="text" style="color: #818144">o/o</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:05" class="time">10:05</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:05"><th class="nick" style="background: #818144"> skvidal</th><td class="text" style="color: #818144">  V</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:05" class="time">10:05</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:06"><th class="nick" style="background: #488888"> blizzard</th><td class="text" style="color: #488888">BUH</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:06" class="time">10:06</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:06"><th class="nick" style="background: #488888"> blizzard</th><td class="text" style="color: #488888">invalid security code</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:06" class="time">10:06</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:06"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> mspevack</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">blizzard: we're doing the whole thing on IRC :-)</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:06" class="time">10:06</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:06"><th class="nick" style="background: #488888"> blizzard</th><td class="text" style="color: #488888">oh</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:06" class="time">10:06</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:06"><td class="action" colspan="2">* mmcgrath lingers</td><td><a href="#t10:06" class="time">10:06</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:06"><td class="action" colspan="2">* stickster_work is auditing log but can't promise to be around</td><td><a href="#t10:06" class="time">10:06</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:06"><td class="action" colspan="2">* knurd is on the rabble seats</td><td><a href="#t10:06" class="time">10:06</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:06"><th class="nick" style="background: #488888"> blizzard</th><td class="text" style="color: #488888">low bandwith</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:06" class="time">10:06</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:06"><th class="nick" style="background: #488888"> blizzard</th><td class="text" style="color: #488888">well I am here I guess</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:06" class="time">10:06</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:07"><td class="action" colspan="2">* knurd is thl (just in case people are not aware of the nickchange)</td><td><a href="#t10:07" class="time">10:07</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:07"><th class="nick" style="background: #854685"> notting</th><td class="text" style="color: #854685">knurd: nick collision with another thl?</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:07" class="time">10:07</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:08"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> mspevack</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">ok, so we have -- mspevack, blizzard, skvidal, stickster, jeremy, notting, mdomsch</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:08" class="time">10:08</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:08"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> mspevack</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">and we don't have -- rdieter, mether, gregdek</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:08" class="time">10:08</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:08"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> mspevack</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">but that's enough to get started at least.</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:08" class="time">10:08</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:08"><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a"> knurd</th><td class="text" style="color: #8c4a4a">notting, on oftc, yes; and I wanted to get rid of my TLA for ages</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:08" class="time">10:08</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:08"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> mspevack</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">So first topic was to see what we can all agree on, and what needs more discussion, from Thorsten's proposal of how we can structure some of the FESCO/Board/Sub-project governance starting with F8</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:08" class="time">10:08</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:09"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> mspevack</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">I'll say a few things first:</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:09" class="time">10:09</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:09"><th class="nick" style="background: #4b904b"> rdieter</th><td class="text" style="color: #4b904b">here.</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:09" class="time">10:09</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:09"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> mspevack</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">My gues sis that there's general consensus that we want Fesco to be able to "own" a release.  Also that we (meaning the Board and other RH folks with expertise) will advise/assist FESCO and not just say "ok, it's all your problem"</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:09" class="time">10:09</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:10"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> mspevack</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">We talked about having two people from FESCO appointed Technical Leads for any given release.  I'm not sure where that idea went in the past FESCO meeting.</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:10" class="time">10:10</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:10"><th class="nick" style="background: #488888"> blizzard</th><td class="text" style="color: #488888">let us know when you're ready for comments</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:10" class="time">10:10</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:11"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> mspevack</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">And if you look on FAB posts, I liked the idea of having FESCO "own" the responsibilities of things like QA, Releng, but not all of stuff like Ambassadors, Art, etc.  See my response to Karsten's message.</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:11" class="time">10:11</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:11"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> mspevack</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">now I'm ready for comments</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:11" class="time">10:11</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:11"><th class="nick" style="background: #488888"> blizzard</th><td class="text" style="color: #488888">so a few things here</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:11" class="time">10:11</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:11"><th class="nick" style="background: #488888"> blizzard</th><td class="text" style="color: #488888">1. It's not clear to me that the role of fesco was to drive releases</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:11" class="time">10:11</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:12"><th class="nick" style="background: #488888"> blizzard</th><td class="text" style="color: #488888">2. it takes a fedora release and makes it a package-driven release</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:12" class="time">10:12</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:12"><th class="nick" style="background: #488888"> blizzard</th><td class="text" style="color: #488888">3. packaging is really a service role for developers and we should be structured around that</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:12" class="time">10:12</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:12"><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a"> knurd</th><td class="text" style="color: #8c4a4a">blizzard, reg "1"; FESCo was meant as a core cabal successor; didn't the core cabal in the past took care that we got a release every six months?</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:12" class="time">10:12</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:13"><th class="nick" style="background: #488888"> blizzard</th><td class="text" style="color: #488888">4. I want to make sure that releng and development works as an equal to, not subordinate to fesco</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:13" class="time">10:13</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:14"><th class="nick" style="background: #488888"> blizzard</th><td class="text" style="color: #488888">iirc, the core cabal in the past set dates and declared freezes, etc</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:14" class="time">10:14</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:14"><th class="nick" style="background: #488888"> blizzard</th><td class="text" style="color: #488888">so that's a releng role</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:14" class="time">10:14</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:14"><th class="nick" style="background: #488888"> blizzard</th><td class="text" style="color: #488888">(and product role, to some degree)</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:14" class="time">10:14</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:14"><th class="nick" style="background: #488888"> blizzard</th><td class="text" style="color: #488888">but I want to make sure that engineering is more involved</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:14" class="time">10:14</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:14"><th class="nick" style="background: #488888"> blizzard</th><td class="text" style="color: #488888">and fesco is the wrong place to do that, I think</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:14" class="time">10:14</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:15"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> mspevack</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">Well look at someone like Jesse, who owns Fedora RelEng.  He is a member of FESCO.  So when I say FESCO "owns" something like QA and RelEng, I mean that as decisions are made in those realms, the folks on FESCO are basically looked to as the point of ACK/NAK, with FESCO bouncing anything they deem necessary up to the FPB</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:15" class="time">10:15</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:15"><th class="nick" style="background: #488888"> blizzard</th><td class="text" style="color: #488888">right now notting and jeremy seem to be the only people on that group, and they are managing the tools of the distribution (and parts of the disto) but there's no real development/eng involvement</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:15" class="time">10:15</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:15"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> mspevack</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">and the FPB being able to push down to FESCO anything (a) coming out of Red Hat or (b) that the FPB deems crucial</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:15" class="time">10:15</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:16"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> mspevack</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">Folks currently on Fesco:  <a href="http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Development/SteeringCommittee">http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Development/SteeringCommittee</a></td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:16" class="time">10:16</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:16"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> mspevack</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">Everyone who was previously the "Core Cabal" is on there anyway.</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:16" class="time">10:16</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:16"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> mspevack</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">To me this seems very simple -- just a matter of ensuring that all those discussions are now had in the FESCO context.</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:16" class="time">10:16</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:16"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> mspevack</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">(a) that means they will be open</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:16" class="time">10:16</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:17"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> mspevack</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">(b) FESCO will learn how to be a release management body rather than just a packaging one</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:17" class="time">10:17</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:17"><th class="nick" style="background: #4d4d93"> jeremy</th><td class="text" style="color: #4d4d93">mspevack: if the FPB is pushing down Red Hat things, then we've got the model wrong, imho</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:17" class="time">10:17</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:17"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> mspevack</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">Comments?</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:17" class="time">10:17</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:17"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> mspevack</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">jeremy: what i mean by that</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:17" class="time">10:17</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:17"><th class="nick" style="background: #488888"> blizzard</th><td class="text" style="color: #488888">mspevack: I would rather that fesco continue on its path of being an expert on packaging</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:17" class="time">10:17</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:17"><th class="nick" style="background: #488888"> blizzard</th><td class="text" style="color: #488888">mspevack: and releases to some degree</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:17" class="time">10:17</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:17"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> mspevack</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">jeremy: if some manager in RH comes to me, or you, and wants to make sure that "Fedora" knows about FOO or takes BAR into account, then we can make sure FESCO knows about it, is all I am saying</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:17" class="time">10:17</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:18"><th class="nick" style="background: #488888"> blizzard</th><td class="text" style="color: #488888">mspevack: but as a group, they aren't in a position to build a feature list because there's no input there from the developers working on features</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:18" class="time">10:18</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:18"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> mspevack</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">blizzard: rather than try to have fesco be an open Fedora Engineering Management organization, that in turn has its packaging group, release group, etc.?</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:18" class="time">10:18</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:18"><th class="nick" style="background: #488888"> blizzard</th><td class="text" style="color: #488888">mspevack: why do we want to water down fesco just to expand its role?</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:18" class="time">10:18</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:18"><th class="nick" style="background: #488888"> blizzard</th><td class="text" style="color: #488888">I want a group of strong cabals, each with local experts and stakeholders</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:18" class="time">10:18</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:19"><th class="nick" style="background: #854685"> notting</th><td class="text" style="color: #854685">blizzard: tongue-in-cheek, but there's no input anywhere from developers working on features, so designating a place isn't a bad step</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:19" class="time">10:19</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:19"><th class="nick" style="background: #488888"> blizzard</th><td class="text" style="color: #488888">docs/qa/engineering/packaging</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:19" class="time">10:19</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:19"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> mspevack</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">blizzard: Well, what I hear from the non-RH community on FESCO is "give us a greater say in how all the release decisions are made".</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:19" class="time">10:19</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:19"><th class="nick" style="background: #488888"> blizzard</th><td class="text" style="color: #488888">notting: I know :(</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:19" class="time">10:19</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:19"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> mspevack</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">If I may:</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:19" class="time">10:19</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:19"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> mspevack</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">Let's be honest about how Red Hat's influence in Fedora 8/9 is going to show itself.</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:19" class="time">10:19</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:20"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> mspevack</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">We'll be able to get RH Product Managers in a room together, somewhere in RH with other "Red Hat folks who work on Fedora" like me, jeremy, you, etc.</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:20" class="time">10:20</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:20"><th class="nick" style="background: #488888"> blizzard</th><td class="text" style="color: #488888">notting: if I were supreme ruler of the universe I would make danpb, matthias, dave jones, etc sit down and come up with a development roadmap and work with fesco/releng to make sure that things were happening</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:20" class="time">10:20</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:20"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> mspevack</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">And they will tell us what they believe is most important</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:20" class="time">10:20</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:20"><th class="nick" style="background: #488888"> blizzard</th><td class="text" style="color: #488888">right</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:20" class="time">10:20</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:20"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> mspevack</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">At the same time, we need to have our Community making a list of what they want</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:20" class="time">10:20</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:20"><th class="nick" style="background: #488888"> blizzard</th><td class="text" style="color: #488888">but with the structure of fesco, that's not really the right place to do it</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:20" class="time">10:20</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:20"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> mspevack</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">and somewhere in public (FESCO) is where we smash those lists together, and then let RH know the result, and possibly negotiate</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:20" class="time">10:20</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:20"><th class="nick" style="background: #488888"> blizzard</th><td class="text" style="color: #488888">fesco seems more external facing and community building and setting guidelines (not policy!) for participation</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:20" class="time">10:20</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:20"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> mspevack</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">blizzard: where should it be done?</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:20" class="time">10:20</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:21"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> mspevack</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">knurd, bpepple, other fesco guys: your thoughts?</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:21" class="time">10:21</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:21"><th class="nick" style="background: #488888"> blizzard</th><td class="text" style="color: #488888">there's a certain amount of pure development that happens in fedora, too</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:21" class="time">10:21</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:21"><th class="nick" style="background: #4d4d93"> jeremy</th><td class="text" style="color: #4d4d93">mspevack: from what you've just said, the board is the body that's filling that role</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:21" class="time">10:21</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:21"><th class="nick" style="background: #488888"> blizzard</th><td class="text" style="color: #488888">but a packaging group shouldn't be that place?</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:21" class="time">10:21</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:21"><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e"> mdomsch</th><td class="text" style="color: #42427e">jeremy, in theory, the FPB should be worrying about policy and direction</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:21" class="time">10:21</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:21"><th class="nick" style="background: #488888"> blizzard</th><td class="text" style="color: #488888">mspevack: fesco is dominated by packaging folks, and I would rather it stay that way</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:21" class="time">10:21</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:21"><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e"> mdomsch</th><td class="text" style="color: #42427e">and not about feature lists for Fx</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:21" class="time">10:21</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:22"><th class="nick" style="background: #488888"> blizzard</th><td class="text" style="color: #488888">mspevack: it doesn't feel right to add to that group to water it down just to expand the role, that's all I'm saying</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:22" class="time">10:22</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:22"><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a"> knurd</th><td class="text" style="color: #8c4a4a">mspevack, I want to see things done in the open; that's what I care about; it doesn#t have to be FESCo, but I want to know who and where decisisons are made</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:22" class="time">10:22</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:22"><th class="nick" style="background: #4d4d93"> jeremy</th><td class="text" style="color: #4d4d93">and I know we then get into grand vision, etc, etc, etc, but when push comes to shove, Fedora _IS_ technical.  and so trying to remove ourselves (the board) from that just means that we end up reaching down and meddling all the time anyway</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:22" class="time">10:22</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:22"><th class="nick" style="background: #488888"> blizzard</th><td class="text" style="color: #488888">I don't think that this happens in the board</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:22" class="time">10:22</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:22"><th class="nick" style="background: #488888"> blizzard</th><td class="text" style="color: #488888">btw</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:22" class="time">10:22</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:22"><th class="nick" style="background: #488888"> blizzard</th><td class="text" style="color: #488888">I think that we need something that helps to bring together the groups</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:22" class="time">10:22</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:22"><th class="nick" style="background: #488888"> blizzard</th><td class="text" style="color: #488888">that exist</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:22" class="time">10:22</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:23"><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a"> knurd</th><td class="text" style="color: #8c4a4a">mspevack, and I want to feel at least heard when a decision is made; otherwise I as a community member don#t feel respected</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:23" class="time">10:23</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:23"><th class="nick" style="background: #488888"> blizzard</th><td class="text" style="color: #488888">packages, developers, docs folks, rel eng</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:23" class="time">10:23</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:23"><th class="nick" style="background: #488888"> blizzard</th><td class="text" style="color: #488888">is fesco that place?</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:23" class="time">10:23</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:23"><th class="nick" style="background: #488888"> blizzard</th><td class="text" style="color: #488888">right now it's not</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:23" class="time">10:23</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:23"><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a"> knurd</th><td class="text" style="color: #8c4a4a">blizzard, and the board IMHO is not working transparent enough</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:23" class="time">10:23</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:23"><th class="nick" style="background: #818144"> skvidal</th><td class="text" style="color: #818144">knurd: some of the decisions aren't made by the board, either, though</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:23" class="time">10:23</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:24"><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a"> knurd</th><td class="text" style="color: #8c4a4a">skvidal, happens, but that can be communicated</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:24" class="time">10:24</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:24"><th class="nick" style="background: #818144"> skvidal</th><td class="text" style="color: #818144">for example: if the gnome team decides to do X to gnome or 'the big board' or whatever is the thing-of-the-month</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:24" class="time">10:24</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:24"><th class="nick" style="background: #818144"> skvidal</th><td class="text" style="color: #818144">the board doesn't have much, if any, say in that.</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:24" class="time">10:24</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:24"><th class="nick" style="background: #818144"> skvidal</th><td class="text" style="color: #818144">I don't know about anyone else but in my role as a board member I had no idea that the 'the big board' stuff was coming up</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:24" class="time">10:24</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:24"><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a"> knurd</th><td class="text" style="color: #8c4a4a">skvidal, agreed, I don#t want to get FESCo involved in something like that</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:24" class="time">10:24</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:25"><th class="nick" style="background: #818144"> skvidal</th><td class="text" style="color: #818144">knurd: so can you give me some examples of where the board could be more open?</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:25" class="time">10:25</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:25"><th class="nick" style="background: #488888"> blizzard</th><td class="text" style="color: #488888">yeah, I'm curious</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:25" class="time">10:25</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:25"><th class="nick" style="background: #818144"> skvidal</th><td class="text" style="color: #818144">or where we've failed to communicate well?</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:25" class="time">10:25</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:25"><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a"> knurd</th><td class="text" style="color: #8c4a4a">the recent naming issue?</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:25" class="time">10:25</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:25"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> mspevack</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">primary example is my failure to keep the damn IRC logs page updated</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:25" class="time">10:25</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:25"><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a"> knurd</th><td class="text" style="color: #8c4a4a">it came out of the blue for some</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:25" class="time">10:25</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:25"><th class="nick" style="background: #488888"> blizzard</th><td class="text" style="color: #488888">which naming issue?</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:25" class="time">10:25</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:25"><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a"> knurd</th><td class="text" style="color: #8c4a4a">telephone meeting</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:25" class="time">10:25</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:25"><th class="nick" style="background: #818144"> skvidal</th><td class="text" style="color: #818144">knurd: the naming issue with prime vs 'fedora'?</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:25" class="time">10:25</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:26"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> mspevack</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">knurd: we've not done a phone meeting for quite a while now, as you know</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:26" class="time">10:26</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:26"><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a"> knurd</th><td class="text" style="color: #8c4a4a">blizzard, fedora-devel, mini-flamewar yesterday</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:26" class="time">10:26</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:26"><td class="action" colspan="2">* bpepple sees that he was pinged, and tries to get caught up on the discussion.</td><td><a href="#t10:26" class="time">10:26</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:26"><th class="nick" style="background: #488888"> blizzard</th><td class="text" style="color: #488888">knurd: ahh, I haven't seen that, sorry</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:26" class="time">10:26</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:26"><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a"> knurd</th><td class="text" style="color: #8c4a4a">mspevack, k, but you did them, and people remmeber "I can't get heard there"</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:26" class="time">10:26</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:26"><th class="nick" style="background: #818144"> skvidal</th><td class="text" style="color: #818144">knurd: and that decision was also not a function of the board being quiet about something, that I know of</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:26" class="time">10:26</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:26"><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a"> knurd</th><td class="text" style="color: #8c4a4a">I for axample didn#t know just now if you are just here or also on the phone</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:26" class="time">10:26</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:26"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> mspevack</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">knurd: yes, we did them.  But we've stopped :-)</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:26" class="time">10:26</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:26"><th class="nick" style="background: #818144"> skvidal</th><td class="text" style="color: #818144">the first time I heard that the name 'prime' was dropped was the same time you did</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:26" class="time">10:26</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:26"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> mspevack</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">knurd: I said in my email to FAB yesterday that it would be all IRC</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:26" class="time">10:26</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:27"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> mspevack</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">but anyway, look, my perspective on the naming thing:</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:27" class="time">10:27</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:27"><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a"> knurd</th><td class="text" style="color: #8c4a4a">anyway, I agree that the board is getting better in communication</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:27" class="time">10:27</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:27"><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a"> knurd</th><td class="text" style="color: #8c4a4a">but FESCo is still much better</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:27" class="time">10:27</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:27"><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a"> knurd</th><td class="text" style="color: #8c4a4a">public schedule for example</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:27" class="time">10:27</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:27"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> mspevack</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">1) there were several threads in public of huge length of people suggesting all variety of names.</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:27" class="time">10:27</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:28"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> mspevack</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">2) Not all of the Board particularly cared what the final name was</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:28" class="time">10:28</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:28"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> mspevack</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">3) So we went to RH Brand team and laid it all out for them, they made their recommendation, I told Jesse.</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:28" class="time">10:28</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:28"><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a"> knurd</th><td class="text" style="color: #8c4a4a">mspevack, I just want to see the community propoerly involved, that what I care about</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:28" class="time">10:28</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:28"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> mspevack</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">4) The missing piece was the longer explanation of that back to the community</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:28" class="time">10:28</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:28"><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a"> knurd</th><td class="text" style="color: #8c4a4a">we did a lot of wrong there in the past</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:28" class="time">10:28</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:29"><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a"> knurd</th><td class="text" style="color: #8c4a4a">FESCo was good at that, and now with the merge we should try to get good communication and community involvement into other areas</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:29" class="time">10:29</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:29"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> mspevack</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">So I ask:  What is the *DECISION* if any, that we can make here today?</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:29" class="time">10:29</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:29"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> mspevack</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">and then implement</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:29" class="time">10:29</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:29"><th class="nick" style="background: #818144"> skvidal</th><td class="text" style="color: #818144">I'd suggest this</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:29" class="time">10:29</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:29"><th class="nick" style="background: #818144"> skvidal</th><td class="text" style="color: #818144">we keep the duties of the groups as they are.</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:29" class="time">10:29</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:29"><th class="nick" style="background: #488888"> blizzard</th><td class="text" style="color: #488888">mspevack: I will say I'm not comfortable with the structure as proposed because it's too packager-centric and doesn't develop the other areas where we need a lot of help</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:29" class="time">10:29</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:29"><th class="nick" style="background: #818144"> skvidal</th><td class="text" style="color: #818144">the board is tasked with talking to others better, making things more clear</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:29" class="time">10:29</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:30"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> mspevack</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">So let me ask this very simple question -- When and Where is the Fedora 8 schedule going to be drafted?</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:30" class="time">10:30</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:30"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> mspevack</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">this is sort of to Seth's point</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:30" class="time">10:30</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:30"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> mspevack</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">and also thl's</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:30" class="time">10:30</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:30"><th class="nick" style="background: #818144"> skvidal</th><td class="text" style="color: #818144">and we re-eval in 6 months - especially considering the board will be changing members, somewhat</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:30" class="time">10:30</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:30"><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a"> knurd</th><td class="text" style="color: #8c4a4a">skvidal, please give me three things what FESCo is responsible for in the future</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:30" class="time">10:30</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:30"><th class="nick" style="background: #818144"> skvidal</th><td class="text" style="color: #818144">knurd: whatever it is fesco is responsible for now :)</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:30" class="time">10:30</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:30"><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a"> knurd</th><td class="text" style="color: #8c4a4a">when we put all the other stuff on the board</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:30" class="time">10:30</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:30"><th class="nick" style="background: #4d4d93"> jeremy</th><td class="text" style="color: #4d4d93">blizzard: I tend to agree</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:30" class="time">10:30</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:30"><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a"> knurd</th><td class="text" style="color: #8c4a4a">skvidal, that what now?</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:30" class="time">10:30</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:30"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> mspevack</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">similarly: There has been some discussion in places about the merits or disadvantages of having a shorter Fedora 8 release cycle.  Where will this decision be made?</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:30" class="time">10:30</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:31"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> mspevack</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">let's try to answer those questions</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:31" class="time">10:31</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:31"><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a"> knurd</th><td class="text" style="color: #8c4a4a">skvidal, there isn#t much left besides enforcing what the Packaging COmmitee decided</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:31" class="time">10:31</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:31"><td class="action" colspan="2">* knurd stopps</td><td><a href="#t10:31" class="time">10:31</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:31"><td class="action" colspan="2">* bpepple agrees with knurd that FESCo's domain isn't very clear.</td><td><a href="#t10:31" class="time">10:31</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:32"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> mspevack</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">skvidal, jeremy, blizzard: what if the Board were to say something like "We would like FESCO to present a draft schedule for Fedora 8, with a list of 3-5 goals that are most important to the community, by X date"</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:32" class="time">10:32</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:32"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> mspevack</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">what's wrong with that?</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:32" class="time">10:32</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:32"><th class="nick" style="background: #488888"> blizzard</th><td class="text" style="color: #488888">wrt packaging</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:32" class="time">10:32</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:32"><th class="nick" style="background: #488888"> blizzard</th><td class="text" style="color: #488888">but not development goals, because there's no one there to represent that vide</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:32" class="time">10:32</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:32"><th class="nick" style="background: #488888"> blizzard</th><td class="text" style="color: #488888">vew</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:32" class="time">10:32</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:32"><th class="nick" style="background: #488888"> blizzard</th><td class="text" style="color: #488888">view</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:32" class="time">10:32</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:32"><th class="nick" style="background: #488888"> blizzard</th><td class="text" style="color: #488888">they aren't oging to pick virt features, for example</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:32" class="time">10:32</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:32"><th class="nick" style="background: #488888"> blizzard</th><td class="text" style="color: #488888">or desktop features</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:32" class="time">10:32</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:32"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> mspevack</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">sure -- but those aren't necessarily most important to the community anyway</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:32" class="time">10:32</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:33"><th class="nick" style="background: #488888"> blizzard</th><td class="text" style="color: #488888">they should be</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:33" class="time">10:33</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:33"><th class="nick" style="background: #488888"> blizzard</th><td class="text" style="color: #488888">we havne't done it in the past</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:33" class="time">10:33</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:33"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> mspevack</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">What were the community driven features of Fedora 7 -- pungi, koji.  Not virt-manager</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:33" class="time">10:33</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:33"><th class="nick" style="background: #488888"> blizzard</th><td class="text" style="color: #488888">that's a huge part of my point</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:33" class="time">10:33</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:33"><th class="nick" style="background: #488888"> blizzard</th><td class="text" style="color: #488888">knurd talks about a lack of transparency</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:33" class="time">10:33</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:33"><th class="nick" style="background: #488888"> blizzard</th><td class="text" style="color: #488888">and that's an area where we don't have any - development priorities</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:33" class="time">10:33</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:33"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> mspevack</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">It was the community demanding an "open Core" and the Board supporting that 100% internally that made it happen for F7</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:33" class="time">10:33</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:33"><th class="nick" style="background: #854685"> notting</th><td class="text" style="color: #854685">blizzard: why wouldn't they have desktop features that they want, that someone will sign up to do?</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:33" class="time">10:33</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:34"><th class="nick" style="background: #488888"> blizzard</th><td class="text" style="color: #488888">notting: I mean getting the desktop team involved</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:34" class="time">10:34</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:34"><th class="nick" style="background: #488888"> blizzard</th><td class="text" style="color: #488888">notting: getting danpb and those guys on virt involved</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:34" class="time">10:34</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:34"><th class="nick" style="background: #488888"> blizzard</th><td class="text" style="color: #488888">notting: start moving more shit outside the firewall (not just packaging)</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:34" class="time">10:34</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:34"><th class="nick" style="background: #488888"> blizzard</th><td class="text" style="color: #488888">I guess I'm arging the the scope here isn't big enough</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:34" class="time">10:34</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:34"><th class="nick" style="background: #488888"> blizzard</th><td class="text" style="color: #488888">like</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:34" class="time">10:34</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:35"><th class="nick" style="background: #488888"> blizzard</th><td class="text" style="color: #488888">schedules might include packaging-related and build-related things</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:35" class="time">10:35</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:35"><th class="nick" style="background: #488888"> blizzard</th><td class="text" style="color: #488888">but they don't include development goals or priorities in any areas</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:35" class="time">10:35</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:35"><th class="nick" style="background: #488888"> blizzard</th><td class="text" style="color: #488888">does that make sense?</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:35" class="time">10:35</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:35"><th class="nick" style="background: #488888"> blizzard</th><td class="text" style="color: #488888">and fesco-as-that-body doesn't cover that scope as it exists today</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:35" class="time">10:35</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:35"><th class="nick" style="background: #4d4d93"> jeremy</th><td class="text" style="color: #4d4d93">blizzard: makes sense to me</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:35" class="time">10:35</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:35"><th class="nick" style="background: #818144"> skvidal</th><td class="text" style="color: #818144">how do we disagree about development goals?</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:35" class="time">10:35</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:36"><th class="nick" style="background: #818144"> skvidal</th><td class="text" style="color: #818144">ie: if matthias says 'we're going to get rid of the concept of users in gnome'</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:36" class="time">10:36</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:36"><th class="nick" style="background: #488888"> blizzard</th><td class="text" style="color: #488888">I think that the guys who own those development goals aren't involved in fedora today</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:36" class="time">10:36</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:36"><th class="nick" style="background: #488888"> blizzard</th><td class="text" style="color: #488888">I think that's the biggest problem</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:36" class="time">10:36</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:36"><th class="nick" style="background: #818144"> skvidal</th><td class="text" style="color: #818144">how does fedora say, umm, no, don't do that</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:36" class="time">10:36</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:36"><th class="nick" style="background: #488888"> blizzard</th><td class="text" style="color: #488888">and there's no place to do it</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:36" class="time">10:36</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:36"><th class="nick" style="background: #488888"> blizzard</th><td class="text" style="color: #488888">is fesco that place?</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:36" class="time">10:36</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:36"><th class="nick" style="background: #488888"> blizzard</th><td class="text" style="color: #488888">it isn't today, given its makeup or goals</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:36" class="time">10:36</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:36"><th class="nick" style="background: #488888"> blizzard</th><td class="text" style="color: #488888">skvidal: hyperbole? :)</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:36" class="time">10:36</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:36"><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e"> mdomsch</th><td class="text" style="color: #42427e">blizzard, so, how can we get more RH Dev people involved in Fedora ?</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:36" class="time">10:36</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:37"><th class="nick" style="background: #818144"> skvidal</th><td class="text" style="color: #818144">blizzard: yes, hyperbole - but some changes are controversial and sometimes need to be able to be disputed</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:37" class="time">10:37</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:37"><th class="nick" style="background: #488888"> blizzard</th><td class="text" style="color: #488888">mdomsch: I think that the first step is giving them a place to do so</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:37" class="time">10:37</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:37"><th class="nick" style="background: #488888"> blizzard</th><td class="text" style="color: #488888">mdomsch: and identifying the right stakeholders and asking them to be involved in a weekly or bi-weekly meeting to discuss</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:37" class="time">10:37</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:37"><td class="action" colspan="2">* mmcgrath notes that its interesting we have to work to get RH people involved whereas the community members are asking for it.</td><td><a href="#t10:37" class="time">10:37</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:37"><th class="nick" style="background: #4d4d93"> jeremy</th><td class="text" style="color: #4d4d93">blizzard/mdomsch: that is one thing that was fairly attractive to me at least about trying to annoint release drivers/technical leads/whatever you want to call them...  it gives an easy point of contact</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:37" class="time">10:37</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:37"><th class="nick" style="background: #488888"> blizzard</th><td class="text" style="color: #488888">mmcgrath: (yeah, it is, but we haven't made it easy to this point)</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:37" class="time">10:37</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:38"><th class="nick" style="background: #488888"> blizzard</th><td class="text" style="color: #488888">jeremy: yeah</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:38" class="time">10:38</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:38"><th class="nick" style="background: #4d4d93"> jeremy</th><td class="text" style="color: #4d4d93">blizzard: more meetings, cabals, etc is _not_ something that I see working that well in the short term</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:38" class="time">10:38</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:39"><th class="nick" style="background: #488888"> blizzard</th><td class="text" style="color: #488888">jeremy: we need to get the discussions started somehow</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:39" class="time">10:39</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:39"><th class="nick" style="background: #488888"> blizzard</th><td class="text" style="color: #488888">jeremy: so probably a place to meet and a specific goal is a good way to get the pump primed</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:39" class="time">10:39</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:39"><th class="nick" style="background: #488888"> blizzard</th><td class="text" style="color: #488888">jeremy: i.e. "give me development goals and input on schedule for F8"</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:39" class="time">10:39</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:39"><th class="nick" style="background: #4b904b"> rdieter</th><td class="text" style="color: #4b904b">maybe ask those other devel groups, to sit in 1/2 times, just to hear from their pov what it would take for more involvment?</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:39" class="time">10:39</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:39"><th class="nick" style="background: #854685"> notting</th><td class="text" style="color: #854685">mmcgrath: and yet, the number of features on releases/7/features driven by outside-RH.... :/</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:39" class="time">10:39</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:39"><th class="nick" style="background: #488888"> blizzard</th><td class="text" style="color: #488888">jeremy: I will agree that meetings without focus aren't useful, which is why we should come up with some focus for them to work on?</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:39" class="time">10:39</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:40"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> mspevack</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">and I'm saying -- from the Fedora community side, why can't we ask FESCO that question.  If we're going to ask it to other dev groups in Red HAt, let's ask it to FESCO, the closest thing that the Fedora Community has to a dev group</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:40" class="time">10:40</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:40"><th class="nick" style="background: #488888"> blizzard</th><td class="text" style="color: #488888">notting: we also have made that hard, and merge will hopefully help with that (as long as people are willing to delegate!)</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:40" class="time">10:40</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:40"><th class="nick" style="background: #4d4d93"> jeremy</th><td class="text" style="color: #4d4d93">blizzard: I don't think that "come to us" is likely to get the engagement, though</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:40" class="time">10:40</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:40"><th class="nick" style="background: #488888"> blizzard</th><td class="text" style="color: #488888">jeremy: can't hurt to try</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:40" class="time">10:40</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:40"><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e"> mdomsch</th><td class="text" style="color: #42427e">e.g. the "summit" and FUDCons?</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:40" class="time">10:40</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:41"><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e"> mdomsch</th><td class="text" style="color: #42427e">a planning meeting, 2 days, at a RH office + phone + irc to get everyone on board with the F8 plans ?</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:41" class="time">10:41</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:41"><td class="action" colspan="2">* knurd wonders if we should discuss this further on the list and move over to the other topics</td><td><a href="#t10:41" class="time">10:41</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:41"><th class="nick" style="background: #488888"> blizzard</th><td class="text" style="color: #488888">mdomsch: I think that it needs to be an ongoing engagement process</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:41" class="time">10:41</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:42"><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e"> mdomsch</th><td class="text" style="color: #42427e">blizzard, agreed, but something to get the ball rolling</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:42" class="time">10:42</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:42"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> mspevack</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">I think this is a baby steps kind of thing.  I firmly believe that the Board should officially ask FESCO for it's recommendation for a Fedora 8 draft schedule, and for what it believes are the most important feature requests from the non-RH community perspective.  And use that input when we talk to other RH dev groups</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:42" class="time">10:42</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:42"><th class="nick" style="background: #488888"> blizzard</th><td class="text" style="color: #488888">mdomsch: we cna't sit down and plan once and then execute outside of the scope of something like the merge</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:42" class="time">10:42</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:42"><th class="nick" style="background: #488888"> blizzard</th><td class="text" style="color: #488888">mdomsch: agreed that we need to get the ball rolling; in that sense it's a good start</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:42" class="time">10:42</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:42"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> mspevack</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">Another "Fedora Summit" like we did in November or whenever is something we can do</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:42" class="time">10:42</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:42"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> mspevack</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">and this time we can make sure more managers are involved</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:42" class="time">10:42</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:42"><th class="nick" style="background: #854685"> notting</th><td class="text" style="color: #854685">the logical place would be to sequester people at the Summit</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:42" class="time">10:42</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:42"><th class="nick" style="background: #488888"> blizzard</th><td class="text" style="color: #488888">mspevack: yeah, but if that comes without input from the development stakeholders it's not going to fly</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:42" class="time">10:42</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:43"><th class="nick" style="background: #854685"> notting</th><td class="text" style="color: #854685">tad late for that, though</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:43" class="time">10:43</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:43"><th class="nick" style="background: #488888"> blizzard</th><td class="text" style="color: #488888">how so?</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:43" class="time">10:43</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:43"><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e"> mdomsch</th><td class="text" style="color: #42427e">I really like the idea of a "fedora summit", with engineering managers / lead engineers for subprojects</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:43" class="time">10:43</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:43"><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e"> mdomsch</th><td class="text" style="color: #42427e">held a couple weeks after Fx release</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:43" class="time">10:43</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:43"><th class="nick" style="background: #488888"> blizzard</th><td class="text" style="color: #488888">I woudl rather have tech leads than eng. managers</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:43" class="time">10:43</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:43"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> mspevack</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">blizzard: it sounds like you're saying "let's gather goals/requirements from RH first and bring them out to the rest of Fedora" and I'm saying the reverse.  Is that right?</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:43" class="time">10:43</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:44"><th class="nick" style="background: #488888"> blizzard</th><td class="text" style="color: #488888">mspevack: I don't think so</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:44" class="time">10:44</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:44"><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e"> mdomsch</th><td class="text" style="color: #42427e">blizzard, sure, as long as tech leads can commit their people is all</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:44" class="time">10:44</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:44"><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a"> knurd</th><td class="text" style="color: #8c4a4a">mspevack, we need a mix of both in any case IMHO</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:44" class="time">10:44</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:44"><th class="nick" style="background: #488888"> blizzard</th><td class="text" style="color: #488888">mspevack: I'm actually saying "let's gather requirements from development stakeholders in the context of external with community input"</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:44" class="time">10:44</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:45"><th class="nick" style="background: #488888"> blizzard</th><td class="text" style="color: #488888">mspevack: as long as those conversations take place in a transparent way and are communicated well and are input, then I think we're in good shape</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:45" class="time">10:45</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:45"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> mspevack</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">blizzard: ok.  And I'm saying "I don't think a lot of those people are going to be willing to sit in an IRC channel and discuss all that stuff.  Let's ask the community for a list of Stuff It Thinks is Important and we can engange those developers on the community's behalf and try to sell them on some of those points"</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:45" class="time">10:45</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:46"><th class="nick" style="background: #488888"> blizzard</th><td class="text" style="color: #488888">mspevack: I really want to avoid the wish list syndrome - it never works :(</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:46" class="time">10:46</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:46"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> mspevack</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">blizzard: it kind of worked for F7, no?</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:46" class="time">10:46</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:46"><th class="nick" style="background: #488888"> blizzard</th><td class="text" style="color: #488888">mspevack: I would rather draw out the RH engineering folks</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:46" class="time">10:46</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:46"><th class="nick" style="background: #488888"> blizzard</th><td class="text" style="color: #488888">mspevack: into the community</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:46" class="time">10:46</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:46"><th class="nick" style="background: #488888"> blizzard</th><td class="text" style="color: #488888">mspevack: how so?</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:46" class="time">10:46</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:46"><th class="nick" style="background: #4d4d93"> jeremy</th><td class="text" style="color: #4d4d93">mspevack: I don't think so... most of the wish list stuff didn't happen because there wasn't anyone to drive it</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:46" class="time">10:46</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:46"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> mspevack</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">blizzard: to your first point, I'd like to draw more ENG folks out too, I think I'm just more cynical about it than you</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:46" class="time">10:46</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:46"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> mspevack</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">jeremy: well, the big wish list stuff worked.</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:46" class="time">10:46</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:47"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> mspevack</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">jeremy: some of the small things, no.</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:47" class="time">10:47</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:47"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> mspevack</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">jeremy: pungi worked :-)</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:47" class="time">10:47</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:47"><th class="nick" style="background: #4d4d93"> jeremy</th><td class="text" style="color: #4d4d93">mspevack: codec buddy?  encrypted filesystems?  new init?  should I go on?</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:47" class="time">10:47</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:47"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> mspevack</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">jeremy: i'm not saying it was perfect.</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:47" class="time">10:47</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:48"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> mspevack</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">no need to go on! :-P</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:48" class="time">10:48</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:48"><th class="nick" style="background: #488888"> blizzard</th><td class="text" style="color: #488888">mspevack: pungi worked because people inside and outside both believed it</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:48" class="time">10:48</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:48"><th class="nick" style="background: #488888"> blizzard</th><td class="text" style="color: #488888">mspevack: I'm driving to make sure that we're well aligned in the end</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:48" class="time">10:48</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:48"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> mspevack</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">the question that I don't think we're asking is "FESCO leadership team, what can those of us who are RH employees and also Fedora contributors do for you"?</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:48" class="time">10:48</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:48"><th class="nick" style="background: #4d4d93"> jeremy</th><td class="text" style="color: #4d4d93">mspevack: wish list is fundamentally a flawed way to get release features done.  people looked at that and said "hey, look at all the stuff that's going to be in F7" and the stuff that _is_ there isn't the stuff they were talking about</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:48" class="time">10:48</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:49"><th class="nick" style="background: #488888"> blizzard</th><td class="text" style="color: #488888">sorry, guys</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:49" class="time">10:49</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:49"><th class="nick" style="background: #488888"> blizzard</th><td class="text" style="color: #488888">i need to go here in 2 mins</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:49" class="time">10:49</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:49"><th class="nick" style="background: #488888"> blizzard</th><td class="text" style="color: #488888">out of time :)(</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:49" class="time">10:49</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:49"><th class="nick" style="background: #488888"> blizzard</th><td class="text" style="color: #488888">;9</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:49" class="time">10:49</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:49"><th class="nick" style="background: #488888"> blizzard</th><td class="text" style="color: #488888">:(</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:49" class="time">10:49</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:49"><th class="nick" style="background: #488888"> blizzard</th><td class="text" style="color: #488888">I CAN NOT DRIVE MY KEYBOARD</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:49" class="time">10:49</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:49"><th class="nick" style="background: #488888"> blizzard</th><td class="text" style="color: #488888">LOVE, CHRIS</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:49" class="time">10:49</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:49"><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a"> knurd</th><td class="text" style="color: #8c4a4a">jeremy, but taking and implmenting some wiches from the community might be "nice" to get the community involved</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:49" class="time">10:49</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:49"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> mspevack</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">we'll talk more later, blizzard.</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:49" class="time">10:49</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:49"><th class="nick" style="background: #488888"> blizzard</th><td class="text" style="color: #488888">ok</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:49" class="time">10:49</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:50"><th class="nick" style="background: #818144"> skvidal</th><td class="text" style="color: #818144">knurd: isn't that the point of leaders from the community being at a summit to have a discussion like this</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:50" class="time">10:50</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:50"><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a"> knurd</th><td class="text" style="color: #8c4a4a">s/wiches/wishes/</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:50" class="time">10:50</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:50"><th class="nick" style="background: #818144"> skvidal</th><td class="text" style="color: #818144">?</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:50" class="time">10:50</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:50"><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a"> knurd</th><td class="text" style="color: #8c4a4a">skvidal, community leaders are also just leaders</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:50" class="time">10:50</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:50"><th class="nick" style="background: #818144"> skvidal</th><td class="text" style="color: #818144">ie: the leaders from outside of rh help define the goals they hear requested</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:50" class="time">10:50</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:50"><th class="nick" style="background: #818144"> skvidal</th><td class="text" style="color: #818144">what does that mean?</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:50" class="time">10:50</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:50"><th class="nick" style="background: #488888"> blizzard</th><td class="text" style="color: #488888">knurd: honestly, I'd rather be in the place where the community itself can build its own features</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:50" class="time">10:50</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:50"><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a"> knurd</th><td class="text" style="color: #8c4a4a">we need to get the everyone involved</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:50" class="time">10:50</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:50"><th class="nick" style="background: #488888"> blizzard</th><td class="text" style="color: #488888">knurd: instead of asking and rhat does it "for free"</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:50" class="time">10:50</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:50"><th class="nick" style="background: #488888"> blizzard</th><td class="text" style="color: #488888">knurd: another reason for the core/extras merge</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:50" class="time">10:50</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:50"><th class="nick" style="background: #4d4d93"> jeremy</th><td class="text" style="color: #4d4d93">blizzard: +1000</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:50" class="time">10:50</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:51"><th class="nick" style="background: #488888"> blizzard</th><td class="text" style="color: #488888">knurd: it's about enabling others to take part in the larger part</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:51" class="time">10:51</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:51"><th class="nick" style="background: #4d4d93"> jeremy</th><td class="text" style="color: #4d4d93">and much better said than what I had started typing :)</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:51" class="time">10:51</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:51"><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a"> knurd</th><td class="text" style="color: #8c4a4a">blizzard, it's a two way street IMHO</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:51" class="time">10:51</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:51"><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a"> knurd</th><td class="text" style="color: #8c4a4a">you give them something</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:51" class="time">10:51</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:51"><th class="nick" style="background: #488888"> blizzard</th><td class="text" style="color: #488888">knurd: of course, we're all caretakers</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:51" class="time">10:51</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:51"><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a"> knurd</th><td class="text" style="color: #8c4a4a">and they help you</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:51" class="time">10:51</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:51"><th class="nick" style="background: #488888"> blizzard</th><td class="text" style="color: #488888">win/win if you will</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:51" class="time">10:51</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:51"><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a"> knurd</th><td class="text" style="color: #8c4a4a">or the other way around</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:51" class="time">10:51</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:51"><th class="nick" style="background: #488888"> blizzard</th><td class="text" style="color: #488888">(gdk would be proud)</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:51" class="time">10:51</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:51"><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a"> knurd</th><td class="text" style="color: #8c4a4a">:-)</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:51" class="time">10:51</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:51"><th class="nick" style="background: #488888"> blizzard</th><td class="text" style="color: #488888">ok</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:51" class="time">10:51</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:51"><th class="nick" style="background: #488888"> blizzard</th><td class="text" style="color: #488888">I really need to go</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:51" class="time">10:51</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:52"><th class="nick" style="background: #488888"> blizzard</th><td class="text" style="color: #488888">I will read scrollback later</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:52" class="time">10:52</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:52"><th class="nick" style="background: #488888"> blizzard</th><td class="text" style="color: #488888">and send comments if I have them</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:52" class="time">10:52</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:52"><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a"> knurd</th><td class="text" style="color: #8c4a4a">blizzard, have fun</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:52" class="time">10:52</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:52"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> mspevack</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">so back to my first question -- how will the Fedora 8 schedule be determined?  Do we pick a date and then build a release around it?  If so, who will pick the date.  Let's at least answer that.</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:52" class="time">10:52</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:52"><th class="nick" style="background: #488888"> blizzard</th><td class="text" style="color: #488888">(blizzard, start reading...here)</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:52" class="time">10:52</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:52"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> mspevack</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">I think it's a small piece of this larger discussion</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:52" class="time">10:52</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:52"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> mspevack</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">and we can do something concrete</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:52" class="time">10:52</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:52"><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a"> knurd</th><td class="text" style="color: #8c4a4a">I'd really say some of us outline their thoughts on the list</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:52" class="time">10:52</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:52"><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a"> knurd</th><td class="text" style="color: #8c4a4a">and we move on now</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:52" class="time">10:52</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:52"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> mspevack</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">ok.  Moving on then.</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:52" class="time">10:52</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:53"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> mspevack</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">knurd: is there anything else that FESCO needs the Board to discuss or decide?</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:53" class="time">10:53</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:53"><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a"> knurd</th><td class="text" style="color: #8c4a4a">mspevack, hey, I'm not in FESCo anymore</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:53" class="time">10:53</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:53"><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a"> knurd</th><td class="text" style="color: #8c4a4a">but I'm not aware of anything</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:53" class="time">10:53</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:53"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> mspevack</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">right, sorry.  bepple, i mean</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:53" class="time">10:53</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:53"><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a"> knurd</th><td class="text" style="color: #8c4a4a">:-)</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:53" class="time">10:53</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:54"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> mspevack</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">knurd: i was going to ask you about EPEL</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:54" class="time">10:54</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:54"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> mspevack</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">but we'll let bpepple go first</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:54" class="time">10:54</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:54"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> mspevack</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">if he has anything</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:54" class="time">10:54</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:54"><th class="nick" style="background: #97974f"> bpepple</th><td class="text" style="color: #97974f">mspevack: I don't believe there's anything FESCo needs decided right now by the Board.</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:54" class="time">10:54</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:54"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> mspevack</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">ok.  good ;-)</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:54" class="time">10:54</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:54"><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a"> knurd</th><td class="text" style="color: #8c4a4a">about EPEL: we have a political problem right now; some 3rd party repos/packagers request that we add repotags</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:54" class="time">10:54</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:55"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> mspevack</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">knurd: like, instead of tagging something .fc6 we tag it .epel ?</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:55" class="time">10:55</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:55"><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a"> knurd</th><td class="text" style="color: #8c4a4a">there are quite a lot of people in fedora-land that don#t like repotags much</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:55" class="time">10:55</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:55"><th class="nick" style="background: #9b519b"> mmcgrath</th><td class="text" style="color: #9b519b">3rd party repos are holding EPEL to a double standard.</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:55" class="time">10:55</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:55"><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a"> knurd</th><td class="text" style="color: #8c4a4a">mspevack, something like ".el5.epel" in %release, yes</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:55" class="time">10:55</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:56"><th class="nick" style="background: #854685"> notting</th><td class="text" style="color: #854685">mmcgrath: they don't want to give up their rhel packaging in favor of epel?</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:56" class="time">10:56</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:56"><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a"> knurd</th><td class="text" style="color: #8c4a4a">mspevack, we are working on a solution</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:56" class="time">10:56</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:56"><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a"> knurd</th><td class="text" style="color: #8c4a4a">mspevack, but it's quite hard</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:56" class="time">10:56</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:56"><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e"> mdomsch</th><td class="text" style="color: #42427e">grunt... tag overloading bad</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:56" class="time">10:56</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:56"><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a"> knurd</th><td class="text" style="color: #8c4a4a">I'm still in favor in going without them</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:56" class="time">10:56</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:56"><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e"> mdomsch</th><td class="text" style="color: #42427e">extend RPM, don't keep overloading tags</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:56" class="time">10:56</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:56"><td class="action" colspan="2">* bpepple dislikes the dist tag also,</td><td><a href="#t10:56" class="time">10:56</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:57"><th class="nick" style="background: #97974f"> bpepple</th><td class="text" style="color: #97974f">s/dist/repo/</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:57" class="time">10:57</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:57"><th class="nick" style="background: #4b904b"> rdieter</th><td class="text" style="color: #4b904b">discussed 3rd party repos, repo mixing, repotags in #fedora-devel earlier.</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:57" class="time">10:57</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:57"><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a"> knurd</th><td class="text" style="color: #8c4a4a">well, apart from that: people request that we create formal cooperation documents</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:57" class="time">10:57</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:57"><td class="action" colspan="2">* mspevack will support whatever the fedora engineering leader-types recommend.</td><td><a href="#t10:57" class="time">10:57</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:57"><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a"> knurd</th><td class="text" style="color: #8c4a4a">but well, it's all under discussion</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:57" class="time">10:57</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:57"><th class="nick" style="background: #4b904b"> rdieter</th><td class="text" style="color: #4b904b">what we need is rule to play by for mixing to work, and for repo leaders to agree to said rules.</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:57" class="time">10:57</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:57"><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a"> knurd</th><td class="text" style="color: #8c4a4a">I don#t know if we need the board at this point of time</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:57" class="time">10:57</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:57"><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a"> knurd</th><td class="text" style="color: #8c4a4a">but it could happen quite soon</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:57" class="time">10:57</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:58"><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a"> knurd</th><td class="text" style="color: #8c4a4a">apart from politics: we are getting more and more packages in EPEL5</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:58" class="time">10:58</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:58"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> mspevack</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">great!</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:58" class="time">10:58</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:58"><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a"> knurd</th><td class="text" style="color: #8c4a4a">and is starts to lift of; but the political problems are not a great help :-/</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:58" class="time">10:58</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:58"><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a"> knurd</th><td class="text" style="color: #8c4a4a">I'd say we move on now</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:58" class="time">10:58</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:58"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> mspevack</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">well, it wouldn't be Fedora if it didn't have political problems, right?  :-)</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:58" class="time">10:58</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:58"><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a"> knurd</th><td class="text" style="color: #8c4a4a">and I report to the list maybe in one week from now</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:58" class="time">10:58</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:58"><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a"> knurd</th><td class="text" style="color: #8c4a4a">mspevack, :-))</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:58" class="time">10:58</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:59"><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a"> knurd</th><td class="text" style="color: #8c4a4a">but this time it's worse...</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:59" class="time">10:59</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:59"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> mspevack</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">The only other thing that was on my list was to ask "are there any other topics that people would like to discuss today"</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:59" class="time">10:59</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:59"><th class="nick" style="background: #4b904b"> rdieter</th><td class="text" style="color: #4b904b">merge, high noon, Wed.  yay. :)</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:59" class="time">10:59</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:59"><th class="nick" style="background: #97974f"> bpepple</th><td class="text" style="color: #97974f">rdieter: cool.</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:59" class="time">10:59</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t10:59"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> mspevack</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">mmcgrath, rdieter, etc: hardware is finally coming together?</td><td class="time"><a href="#t10:59" class="time">10:59</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t11:00"><th class="nick" style="background: #9b519b"> mmcgrath</th><td class="text" style="color: #9b519b">mspevack: Think so the PPC box is on the way to the data center, the x86 builder is already there but not racked AFAIK.</td><td class="time"><a href="#t11:00" class="time">11:00</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t11:00"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> mspevack</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">k.  anything else, from anyone?</td><td class="time"><a href="#t11:00" class="time">11:00</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t11:01"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> mspevack</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">f13: have you started the thread yet where people recommend names for the release? Ie: Bordeaux, Zod, ???</td><td class="time"><a href="#t11:01" class="time">11:01</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t11:01"><td class="action" colspan="2">* mspevack doesn't read fedora-maintainers very often</td><td><a href="#t11:01" class="time">11:01</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t11:01"><th class="nick" style="background: #854685"> notting</th><td class="text" style="color: #854685">mspevack: it has been started</td><td class="time"><a href="#t11:01" class="time">11:01</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t11:01"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> mspevack</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">well, i guess i'll go read that list now then.  that's always a fun thread.</td><td class="time"><a href="#t11:01" class="time">11:01</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t11:01"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> mspevack</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">ok, anything else?  Anything from other Board members?</td><td class="time"><a href="#t11:01" class="time">11:01</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t11:02"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> mspevack</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">going....</td><td class="time"><a href="#t11:02" class="time">11:02</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t11:02"><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e"> mdomsch</th><td class="text" style="color: #42427e">it's public now; Dell's going to pre-isntall ubuntu</td><td class="time"><a href="#t11:02" class="time">11:02</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t11:02"><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e"> mdomsch</th><td class="text" style="color: #42427e">on desktops</td><td class="time"><a href="#t11:02" class="time">11:02</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t11:02"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> mspevack</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">yeah, that's all over slashdot :-)</td><td class="time"><a href="#t11:02" class="time">11:02</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t11:02"><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e"> mdomsch</th><td class="text" style="color: #42427e">I couldn't say anything beforehand</td><td class="time"><a href="#t11:02" class="time">11:02</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t11:02"><th class="nick" style="background: #854685"> notting</th><td class="text" style="color: #854685">mdomsch: traitor! :)</td><td class="time"><a href="#t11:02" class="time">11:02</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t11:02"><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a"> knurd</th><td class="text" style="color: #8c4a4a">we should try to improve Fedora so Dell switches to Fedora by F10 ;-)</td><td class="time"><a href="#t11:02" class="time">11:02</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t11:02"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> mspevack</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">mdomsch: what can you tell us, publicly, about how that decision was reached, what else was considered, etc.?</td><td class="time"><a href="#t11:02" class="time">11:02</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t11:03"><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e"> mdomsch</th><td class="text" style="color: #42427e">the decision was easy: look at dellideastorm.com, and 80% of the people on there asked for Ubuntu</td><td class="time"><a href="#t11:03" class="time">11:03</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t11:03"><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e"> mdomsch</th><td class="text" style="color: #42427e">and we only have the resources to factory install one</td><td class="time"><a href="#t11:03" class="time">11:03</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t11:03"><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e"> mdomsch</th><td class="text" style="color: #42427e">*but*, and this is the big *but*</td><td class="time"><a href="#t11:03" class="time">11:03</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t11:03"><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e"> mdomsch</th><td class="text" style="color: #42427e">we'll post links to other Distro's web pages that list certifications, if they exist</td><td class="time"><a href="#t11:03" class="time">11:03</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t11:03"><th class="nick" style="background: #854685"> notting</th><td class="text" style="color: #854685">mdomsch: is part of the consideration canonical doing front/back-line support?</td><td class="time"><a href="#t11:03" class="time">11:03</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t11:03"><td class="action" colspan="2">* spot hums judas priest</td><td><a href="#t11:03" class="time">11:03</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t11:03"><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e"> mdomsch</th><td class="text" style="color: #42427e">notting, yes</td><td class="time"><a href="#t11:03" class="time">11:03</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t11:04"><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e"> mdomsch</th><td class="text" style="color: #42427e">notting, it's an upsell at point of purchase or thereafter</td><td class="time"><a href="#t11:04" class="time">11:04</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t11:04"><th class="nick" style="background: #9b519b"> mmcgrath</th><td class="text" style="color: #9b519b">Simple matter of Canonical doing what we won't.</td><td class="time"><a href="#t11:04" class="time">11:04</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t11:04"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> mspevack</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">mdomsch: you mean by that, other web pages that list certifications.  ie: if we can take the same model laptop and say "The Fedora Project says that F7 runs on A Dell Widget 7000"</td><td class="time"><a href="#t11:04" class="time">11:04</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t11:04"><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e"> mdomsch</th><td class="text" style="color: #42427e">mspevack, exactly</td><td class="time"><a href="#t11:04" class="time">11:04</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t11:05"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> mspevack</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">mdomsch: so is the list of models that Dell will be installing Ubuntu on finalized?</td><td class="time"><a href="#t11:05" class="time">11:05</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t11:05"><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e"> mdomsch</th><td class="text" style="color: #42427e">mspevack, yes, but it's not public</td><td class="time"><a href="#t11:05" class="time">11:05</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t11:05"><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e"> mdomsch</th><td class="text" style="color: #42427e">though the articles I read this morning got it pretty much right</td><td class="time"><a href="#t11:05" class="time">11:05</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t11:05"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> mspevack</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">mdomsch: then can you start installing F7 on them and seeing how well we're doing? :-)</td><td class="time"><a href="#t11:05" class="time">11:05</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t11:05"><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e"> mdomsch</th><td class="text" style="color: #42427e">-ENOTESTSUITE</td><td class="time"><a href="#t11:05" class="time">11:05</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t11:06"><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e"> mdomsch</th><td class="text" style="color: #42427e">smolt's a start; add a way for users to rate their system</td><td class="time"><a href="#t11:06" class="time">11:06</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t11:06"><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e"> mdomsch</th><td class="text" style="color: #42427e">1: it sucks rocks</td><td class="time"><a href="#t11:06" class="time">11:06</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t11:06"><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e"> mdomsch</th><td class="text" style="color: #42427e">10: everything works perfectly</td><td class="time"><a href="#t11:06" class="time">11:06</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t11:07"><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e"> mdomsch</th><td class="text" style="color: #42427e">and really, a formal test suite (ala that lamentable RHEL cert suite)</td><td class="time"><a href="#t11:07" class="time">11:07</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t11:07"><td class="action" colspan="2">* mmcgrath could add that by the end of the day... just saying.</td><td><a href="#t11:07" class="time">11:07</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t11:07"><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e"> mdomsch</th><td class="text" style="color: #42427e">all that can be done without creating a formal support org</td><td class="time"><a href="#t11:07" class="time">11:07</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t11:08"><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e"> mdomsch</th><td class="text" style="color: #42427e">the key to the cert suite is that *anyone*, not just people @Dell, could run it themselves and post the results to Fedora</td><td class="time"><a href="#t11:08" class="time">11:08</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t11:08"><th class="nick" style="background: #854685"> notting</th><td class="text" style="color: #854685">isn't this the same HCL discussion that pops up every three months?</td><td class="time"><a href="#t11:08" class="time">11:08</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t11:08"><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e"> mdomsch</th><td class="text" style="color: #42427e">leverage the community who already has the hardware and already run Fedora</td><td class="time"><a href="#t11:08" class="time">11:08</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t11:08"><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e"> mdomsch</th><td class="text" style="color: #42427e">notting, probably</td><td class="time"><a href="#t11:08" class="time">11:08</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t11:08"><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e"> mdomsch</th><td class="text" style="color: #42427e">anyhow, just wanted to plant that idea once again</td><td class="time"><a href="#t11:08" class="time">11:08</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t11:09"><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e"> mdomsch</th><td class="text" style="color: #42427e">moving on...</td><td class="time"><a href="#t11:09" class="time">11:09</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t11:09"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> mspevack</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">well, if there's nothing else, i move to adjourn</td><td class="time"><a href="#t11:09" class="time">11:09</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t11:10"><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e"> mdomsch</th><td class="text" style="color: #42427e">+1</td><td class="time"><a href="#t11:10" class="time">11:10</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t11:11"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> mspevack</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">ok, i'll take silence as a +1.  Remember, no Board meeting next week due to RH Summit in San Diego.</td><td class="time"><a href="#t11:11" class="time">11:11</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t11:11"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> mspevack</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40"><================= adjourned</td><td class="time"><a href="#t11:11" class="time">11:11</a></td></tr>
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Meeting:Board meeting 2007-05-01

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Fedora Project Board Meeting (2007-05-01)

Role Call

FESCO/Board/Sub-project governance starting with F8

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