From Fedora Project Wiki
Fedora Project Board Meeting :: Tuesday 2008-07-08
Roll Call
Attendees: Everyone on #fedora-board-meeting
Discussion Summary
- Board followup on CVS commits map and privacy considerations
- OWNER: spot will open ticket with Infrastructure, geo data opt-in for FAS
- Board answers community questions on:
- Whether and how to quantify and use community work data
- The #1 supercomputer in the world runs Fedora - http://www.top500.org/system/9485
- Spreading other big installation success stories
- OWNER: Jef will set up list of questions on [Marketing list]
- Election improvements
- Board consensus is that open nomination process is OK, provided nominee accepts
- OWNER: John Rose will deliver a list of places where we need to document the above
- FESCo role
- Other activities Board members are involved with
IRC Transcript
- Raw discussion is here
| spevack | stickster: do you want to at least start things off in fedora-board-public | 08 Jul 14:00 |
|---|---|---|
| spevack | make an opening statement | 08 Jul 14:00 |
| --- ChanServ (ChanServ@services.) changed mode: +v spot | 08 Jul 14:00 | |
| spevack | then move in here? | 08 Jul 14:00 |
| stickster | Uh, sure! | 08 Jul 14:00 |
| --- ChanServ (ChanServ@services.) changed mode: +v f13 | 08 Jul 14:01 | |
| * stickster notes the whole Board is here for the first time officially! | 08 Jul 14:02 | |
| stickster | s/first time/first time with this composition/ | 08 Jul 14:02 |
| f13 | huzzah. | 08 Jul 14:03 |
| spevack | inode0 points us to http://www.lanl.gov/roadrunner/ | 08 Jul 14:03 |
| spevack | and asks if people know that it runs Fedora? | 08 Jul 14:03 |
| --- ChanServ (ChanServ@services.) changed mode: +v quaid | 08 Jul 14:03 | |
| f13 | I was not aware. | 08 Jul 14:04 |
| poelcat | ready to start? | 08 Jul 14:04 |
| skvidal | spevack: does tchung know anyone? | 08 Jul 14:04 |
| poelcat | we have a couple of followups from last week's meeting | 08 Jul 14:04 |
| poelcat | the first of which requires Jef(f) | 08 Jul 14:04 |
| spoleeba | there are probably a lot of research clusters that run fedora | 08 Jul 14:04 |
| mdomsch | the ones Dell sells tend to run RHEL or a variant thereof | 08 Jul 14:05 |
| stickster | poelcat: Go ahead, let's get them handled so we can go to Q&A | 08 Jul 14:05 |
| --- poelcat (n=slick@fedora/poelcat) changed topic: privacy discussion around CVS commits | 08 Jul 14:05 | |
| poelcat | spoleeba: do you have an update? | 08 Jul 14:05 |
| spoleeba | poelcat, update on what? | 08 Jul 14:06 |
| quaid | 08 Jul 14:06 | |
| * quaid suddenly feels lost about the topic | 08 Jul 14:06 | |
| spoleeba | poelcat, the fact that we can't actually display the map for cvs commits | 08 Jul 14:06 |
| poelcat | http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Board/Meetings/2008-07-01#Guarding_Privacy | 08 Jul 14:06 |
| quaid | step back question -- | 08 Jul 14:07 |
| spoleeba | poelcat, no update... the map we have is stale.. i just have to ping the right admins to remove the map.. | 08 Jul 14:07 |
| quaid | what is the exact problem, in our privacy viewpoint, with anonymous geo data? | 08 Jul 14:07 |
| poelcat | 08 Jul 14:07 | |
| * poelcat notes followup for next meeting | 08 Jul 14:07 | |
| spoleeba | quaid, the cvs commits arent anon | 08 Jul 14:07 |
| spoleeba | quaid, they are tied to account activity | 08 Jul 14:07 |
| spoleeba | quaid, downloads...are anon | 08 Jul 14:08 |
| quaid | so is the problem that we are not anonymizing it before revealing? | 08 Jul 14:08 |
| skvidal | the problem is we're showing where people are coming from | 08 Jul 14:08 |
| quaid | so, yes | 08 Jul 14:08 |
| f13 | quaid: the problem is that cvs commits are contribution, rather than consumption | 08 Jul 14:08 |
| stickster | quaid: And because FAS accounts may have geographic location attached, even though we didn't *intend* to pull data from FAS, we want to avoid appearance of not following our privacy policy | 08 Jul 14:08 |
| skvidal | and in certain cases they could be the only contrbutor in their country | 08 Jul 14:08 |
| f13 | quaid: I don't really want to know if there are people contributing to Fedora from certain countries. | 08 Jul 14:09 |
| h\h | you can always use Ohloh for a quick overview ... :) http://www.ohloh.net/projects/fedora | 08 Jul 14:09 |
| skvidal | and they might not want their gov't being able to know it | 08 Jul 14:09 |
| spevack | this problem apply to the wiki edits maps also, then, yes? | 08 Jul 14:09 |
| spoleeba | quaid, we would need to build in an opt in process in fas for people to choose to let us put them a map | 08 Jul 14:09 |
| mdomsch | 08 Jul 14:09 | |
| * mdomsch nukes maps/cvs-commits/ | 08 Jul 14:09 | |
| quaid | oh please | 08 Jul 14:09 |
| mdomsch | http://fedoraproject.org/maps/ no longer shows the maps | 08 Jul 14:09 |
| quaid | if I 'm a gummint that cares | 08 Jul 14:09 |
| quaid | I *know* already you are committing | 08 Jul 14:09 |
| quaid | just from your IP traffic. | 08 Jul 14:09 |
| quaid | what I want to know is ... | 08 Jul 14:09 |
| notting | h\h: Ohloh Analysis Summary * Mostly written in shell script. heh. | 08 Jul 14:09 |
| quaid | are we stopping this activity forever or just until we can properly anonymize and move to opt-in for aggregation? | 08 Jul 14:10 |
| spoleeba | quaid, do we leak that ip information publically? | 08 Jul 14:10 |
| f13 | quaid: we're stopping it until accounts opt-in to sharing their geographical location | 08 Jul 14:10 |
| quaid | spoleeba: I'm just saying the Evil Gummit argument is ridiculous. | 08 Jul 14:10 |
| stickster | spot spoke to this pretty well last week. spot, care to chime in? | 08 Jul 14:10 |
| quaid | f13: thanks | 08 Jul 14:10 |
| spot | 08 Jul 14:10 | |
| * spot needs to be careful what he "says" here. | 08 Jul 14:10 | |
| f13 | quaid: once we know that the contributor doesn't care, then we can make use of that data in various ways, such as commit maps | 08 Jul 14:10 |
| f13 | at least that's my opinion | 08 Jul 14:10 |
| stickster | *nod | 08 Jul 14:10 |
| quaid | I was offsite and unavail last week so this is my first exposure to the discussion, fwiw | 08 Jul 14:11 |
| f13 | nod | 08 Jul 14:11 |
| quaid | f13: +1 | 08 Jul 14:11 |
| spoleeba | f13, do we leak ip logs in commit mails or similar? | 08 Jul 14:11 |
| spot | but we can't have anything geographical that has the possibility of being tied back to contributors until they can opt in | 08 Jul 14:11 |
| spot | and then we can only use geo data from the contributors who have opted-in | 08 Jul 14:11 |
| f13 | spoleeba: I don't believe so, but I wouldn't hold me accountable for that. | 08 Jul 14:11 |
| quaid | makes sense, I just wanted to be sure we were going in the right direction v. full stop | 08 Jul 14:11 |
| spoleeba | f13, we should check that..since this basically comes down to keeping the ip addresses in the logs..private | 08 Jul 14:12 |
| f13 | sure. I haven't been on cvs-commits-list for a long time. | 08 Jul 14:12 |
| spoleeba | f13, if we are leaking the ips... then the hand wringing over geoip is pointless | 08 Jul 14:12 |
| stickster | Is there anything preventing us from posting broader regional data like NA, SA, EMEA, etc.? | 08 Jul 14:12 |
| stickster | As opposed to a geo map? | 08 Jul 14:12 |
| f13 | spoleeba: I don't believe we're leaking th ough, looking at some of these commits | 08 Jul 14:12 |
| mdomsch | I wouldn't think so, that's aggregation | 08 Jul 14:13 |
| f13 | stickster: I would avoid doing such things | 08 Jul 14:13 |
| spevack | stickster: a related question from JonRob to this topic, when you are ready to move from the specific to the general case | 08 Jul 14:13 |
| f13 | stickster: we want to do it right (opt-in) rather than "what we can get away with" | 08 Jul 14:13 |
| spoleeba | stickster, im not sure there's a lot of value in a patchwork with areas that large | 08 Jul 14:13 |
| quaid | spoleeba: I don't see any IPs in any CVS commit messages that I get | 08 Jul 14:13 |
| spot | stickster: i'm not sure how valuable that data is, other than to say things like "we got commits." | 08 Jul 14:13 |
| quaid | I'm sure it's valuable | 08 Jul 14:14 |
| stickster | spoleeba: There's some possible value to the way we spend community architecture funds... but I don't mean to suggest we should try and "get away with" anything. | 08 Jul 14:14 |
| spoleeba | quaid, regardless of the evil government argument.. the fact that matters to me..was that we do right by our privacy agreement | 08 Jul 14:14 |
| quaid | marketing focus -- where do we have activity, where do we not | 08 Jul 14:14 |
| ctyler | backup to a claim of being global | 08 Jul 14:14 |
| spoleeba | quaid, over all of asia? versus all of europe? | 08 Jul 14:14 |
| f13 | is there any reason to play "how much can we get away with" games now, instead of waiting until we get opt-in/out capability later? | 08 Jul 14:14 |
| quaid | IMO, Fedora Project is likely within it's rights to manually anonymize whatever data we have in the systems. | 08 Jul 14:14 |
| stickster | OK, we're 14 minutes in. spoleeba, can you handle getting this map dismantled by next week? | 08 Jul 14:14 |
| skvidal | f13: +1 | 08 Jul 14:15 |
| spoleeba | quaid, im not sure thats fine grained enough to be useful... it look like a risk map | 08 Jul 14:15 |
| quaid | spoleeba: as granular as we can get it | 08 Jul 14:15 |
| spot | i would still feel a lot better if we only used data from contributors who have opted in. | 08 Jul 14:15 |
| quaid | spoleeba: you are a scientist, not a marketeer :D | 08 Jul 14:15 |
| spoleeba | stickster, mdomsch already nuked it | 08 Jul 14:15 |
| spevack | those maps and the data behind them are the single best piece of information that we have when it comes time to talk $ with RH VIPs. | 08 Jul 14:15 |
| quaid | spevack +1 | 08 Jul 14:15 |
| quaid | that's what I mean | 08 Jul 14:15 |
| quaid | people who use slidedecks as "in depth analysis" | 08 Jul 14:15 |
| mdomsch | spevack, but that need not be public | 08 Jul 14:15 |
| quaid | nope | 08 Jul 14:15 |
| f13 | usefulness doesn't override responsibility | 08 Jul 14:15 |
| spot | then, lets get an opt-in system for people to let us use their country code. | 08 Jul 14:15 |
| spoleeba | spevack, im not disagreeing what that...but i think they need to be some what more fine grained than..continent coloring | 08 Jul 14:15 |
| poelcat | spoleeba mdomsch is there any followup here? | 08 Jul 14:15 |
| spot | that data exists in FAS2 | 08 Jul 14:15 |
| mdomsch | poelcat: follow-up is: | 08 Jul 14:15 |
| spevack | spoleeba: +1 | 08 Jul 14:16 |
| quaid | f13: agreed, just arguing that it *is* useful, where some here are saying they don't see a use. | 08 Jul 14:16 |
| spoleeba | poelcat, until we get the log parsing scripts reworked..there's nothing here | 08 Jul 14:16 |
| mdomsch | 1) contributor maps have been removed | 08 Jul 14:16 |
| spevack | mdomsch: true, but I'd prefer that as much be public as possible, always, based of course on the legal requirements that we must comply with | 08 Jul 14:16 |
| mdomsch | 2) FAS work needed to let users "opt in" to having their geographic location used in public | 08 Jul 14:16 |
| spoleeba | poelcat, basically...before we put up any new map concepts..we need to approve them at the board level to make sure we dont screw up privacy data | 08 Jul 14:16 |
| mdomsch | EOL | 08 Jul 14:17 |
| stickster | Who's going to own #2 on mdomsch's summary? | 08 Jul 14:17 |
| spot | i will open a ticket with infrastructure | 08 Jul 14:17 |
| spot | they already love me. ;) | 08 Jul 14:17 |
| stickster | You're a lovable guy. | 08 Jul 14:17 |
| skvidal | 08 Jul 14:17 | |
| * skvidal just pinged folks in #fedora-admin | 08 Jul 14:17 | |
| poelcat | okay... other followups were longer term | 08 Jul 14:18 |
| quaid | ha, only four clicks to get to the privacy policy from fp.o | 08 Jul 14:18 |
| poelcat | and may want to touch on them here during the Q&A | 08 Jul 14:18 |
| poelcat | which were: board elections and future trademark usage | 08 Jul 14:18 |
| spevack | are we ready for Q&A? | 08 Jul 14:18 |
| poelcat | followups with board after discussion on f-a-b will be on 2008-08-05 | 08 Jul 14:18 |
| mdomsch | quaid: I can get there in 3 :-) | 08 Jul 14:18 |
| spot | 08 Jul 14:18 | |
| * spot was born ready. ;) | 08 Jul 14:18 | |
| stickster | poelcat: Yeah, those seem like they can easily come up as Q&A fodder | 08 Jul 14:19 |
| quaid | mdomsch: well, only if you scroll where I clicked on the the ToC on the Legal page | 08 Jul 14:19 |
| poelcat | spevack: that is all from the desk of the secretary | 08 Jul 14:19 |
| spevack | question from JonRob which is a natural segue from the previous topic. I shall summarize: | 08 Jul 14:19 |
| f13 | I'm ready. | 08 Jul 14:19 |
| spevack | what is the board's thoughts about how we should use contributor data? | 08 Jul 14:20 |
| spevack | in particular: | 08 Jul 14:20 |
| spevack | with regard to figuring out/monitoring how much "work" any given contributor is doing? | 08 Jul 14:20 |
| spevack | EOL | 08 Jul 14:20 |
| f13 | I think we should be using it in the most 'anonymous' way possible, and the least intrusive way possible. | 08 Jul 14:20 |
| spot | well, we can't use data covered by the privacy policy | 08 Jul 14:20 |
| quaid | We're pretty limited by this in terms of anything not a public forum: http://www.redhat.com/legal/privacy_statement.html#share | 08 Jul 14:20 |
| quaid | yeah, what spot said | 08 Jul 14:21 |
| spot | but we can say that spot had 40000 commits last night. | 08 Jul 14:21 |
| f13 | we'dl ike to show that "work" or "contribution" is done by areas of the world, and by areas of SIGS, but without revealing specifically who is doing which specific work. | 08 Jul 14:21 |
| quaid | because that is a public forum | 08 Jul 14:21 |
| mdomsch | slow night for spot | 08 Jul 14:21 |
| stickster | It gets touchier to produce these statistics when SIGs dwindle in size | 08 Jul 14:21 |
| h\h | f13, while the data who is doing what is already public in the cvs commit log anyway.. | 08 Jul 14:22 |
| spoleeba | spevack, different subproject areas need to figure out what makes sense as a unit of work | 08 Jul 14:22 |
| spoleeba | spevack, obviously commits for "packaging subproject" but wtf do you we stand up as a unit of work for ambassadors? | 08 Jul 14:23 |
| stickster | I think spoleeba would agree there's some value in making sure contributors aren't burning out -- that doesn't mean forcing people to change jobs, but simply making sure we don't let people get overburdened simply because no one notices how much they're doing. | 08 Jul 14:23 |
| spot | from my perspective, any data that we gather from a user making public contributions (owning packages, making cvs commits) is fine. | 08 Jul 14:23 |
| mdomsch | h\h, agreed, but as you recognize too, there's more to contributing than CVS commits | 08 Jul 14:23 |
| h\h | right | 08 Jul 14:23 |
| skvidal | stickster: it feels like the opposite t oem | 08 Jul 14:23 |
| ctyler | some activity is really hard to centrally monitor | 08 Jul 14:23 |
| skvidal | it feels like tracking user contributions will make it feel like a job | 08 Jul 14:24 |
| spoleeba | mdomsch, i think we should count average length of sentences in mailinglist posts | 08 Jul 14:24 |
| stickster | skvidal: There's value in making sure people *do* burn out? | 08 Jul 14:24 |
| quaid | what we want to be careful of is having it become a negative pointer, only a positive pointer -- it shows when people are working hard, but doesn't make a spectacle out of people who are e.g. not responding to their bug reports | 08 Jul 14:24 |
| skvidal | any time I've been faced with daily/hourly status reports in jobs it always feels like I'm being watched | 08 Jul 14:24 |
| stickster | skvidal: no, no -- I'm not talking about making people track their work. | 08 Jul 14:24 |
| spot | i would rather not use stats to tell people when they are failing. | 08 Jul 14:24 |
| f13 | skvidal: +1 | 08 Jul 14:24 |
| f13 | stickster: no, but you're tracking it /for/ them | 08 Jul 14:24 |
| h\h | http://www.ohloh.net/projects/fedora/contributors | 08 Jul 14:24 |
| skvidal | stickster: I'm sure you're not but it may feel like that | 08 Jul 14:24 |
| quaid | spot: a nicer way of saying what I meant :) | 08 Jul 14:24 |
| f13 | which essentially is the same thing. | 08 Jul 14:24 |
| spot | if we simply present the statistics, i see no fault in that | 08 Jul 14:25 |
| quaid | even if it were above the individual level, e.g. tracking how much 'work' a SIG is doing, people will feel it personally. | 08 Jul 14:25 |
| spot | the fedora packaging reports do this, without assigning blame | 08 Jul 14:25 |
| spoleeba | spevack, and there is the question of what do we plan to do with anything we collect... assuming for example we can trend the amount of work ambassadors as a group are doing...how would we use the data...do we have resources that could be allocated based on growth or need? | 08 Jul 14:26 |
| stickster | f13: So letting a contributor know, "Hey, I noticed you're regularly taking care of 400 packages, and I just want to make sure you have what you need to be comfortable doing that" is bad? | 08 Jul 14:26 |
| skvidal | stickster: it's not bad - it just won't stay that way | 08 Jul 14:26 |
| skvidal | b/c it just won't be us being well-intentioned | 08 Jul 14:26 |
| skvidal | it'll be some ass hat being an asshat | 08 Jul 14:26 |
| spot | stickster: no one is actually, i'm the biggest at 266. but still. ;) | 08 Jul 14:26 |
| skvidal | and brandishing the stats like a bludgeon | 08 Jul 14:26 |
| skvidal | 'You don't do enough' | 08 Jul 14:26 |
| stickster | spot: I just want to make sure you have what you need to be comfortable with that :-) | 08 Jul 14:27 |
| skvidal | 'jeez, you didn't do shit last week, did you' | 08 Jul 14:27 |
| f13 | stickster: I think that's targetted which might not be the rigth thing. Making a general announceement to provide anything that anybody is missing is likely more "correct" | 08 Jul 14:27 |
| f13 | stickster: just because somebody is taking care of 400 packages doesn't mean that he deserves any more attention than the person managing 2 packages. | 08 Jul 14:27 |
| ctyler | I think we need to consider that someone who organizes local installfests and is responsible for adding hundreds of people to the Fedora community might barely register using most metrics | 08 Jul 14:27 |
| f13 | yes | 08 Jul 14:27 |
| spot | i would much rather see energy going into quicker detection of absent maintainers | 08 Jul 14:27 |
| f13 | metrics-- | 08 Jul 14:27 |
| stickster | ctyler: Yes, spoleeba's point earlier | 08 Jul 14:27 |
| h\h | ctyler, right | 08 Jul 14:27 |
| spot | if someone hasn't committed in XX months, we gently checkin | 08 Jul 14:28 |
| skvidal | stickster: information which can be used well-intentionedly can also be abused - hence privacy policies | 08 Jul 14:28 |
| f13 | metrics merely present a way to game the system and morph data into ones personal vendetta. | 08 Jul 14:28 |
| stickster | So the answer is peer-based | 08 Jul 14:28 |
| skvidal | yes | 08 Jul 14:28 |
| spoleeba | skvidal, i want aggregate data to trend. I want to be able to see if some area is exploding or imploding relative to the growth of the work being done in another area.. i dont want individual contributor stats from a project management standpoint | 08 Jul 14:28 |
| f13 | spot: I'm perfectly OK with that | 08 Jul 14:28 |
| f13 | spot: in fact, I'm highly for that. | 08 Jul 14:28 |
| quaid | 08 Jul 14:28 | |
| * quaid cannot find himself on ohloh.net for example | 08 Jul 14:28 | |
| spevack | JonRob has a followup comment: if you highlight big, successful contributions, are you perhaps demotivating people for whom a small contribution is a major effort -- newbies, etc? | 08 Jul 14:28 |
| skvidal | 08 Jul 14:28 | |
| * skvidal is fine with spots suggestion | 08 Jul 14:28 | |
| f13 | JonRob: that's what I'd like to avoid | 08 Jul 14:29 |
| stickster | JonRob: good point, and that also points to a peer-based solution | 08 Jul 14:29 |
| f13 | however at times it may be impossible to avoid that | 08 Jul 14:29 |
| spot | JonRob: like ctaylor said, there are lots of contributions that are hard to track, and hard to "reward" | 08 Jul 14:29 |
| quaid | peer rewards might be cool | 08 Jul 14:29 |
| f13 | everybody's contribution means something, and it's all very dynamic and nearly impossible to 'metric' | 08 Jul 14:29 |
| spot | i've had the basic idea for a karma system bouncing around in my head for months | 08 Jul 14:29 |
| mdomsch | 08 Jul 14:29 | |
| * mdomsch has a real-life loud fire alarm blaring in his ear; bbiab | 08 Jul 14:29 | |
| spot | but the implementation details are... hard. | 08 Jul 14:29 |
| f13 | but from time to time the board or some other sig may choose to highlight a particular individual for a particular job | 08 Jul 14:30 |
| stickster | mdomsch should not be smoking in the server room. | 08 Jul 14:30 |
| spoleeba | f13, if we dont stand up the metrics as the basis of any project wide reward system..i think we can avoid it | 08 Jul 14:30 |
| spot | i'd be interested in hearing ideas on how to do such a karma system. | 08 Jul 14:30 |
| skvidal | do it in fas | 08 Jul 14:30 |
| f13 | spoleeba: again, it's not what 'we' would do with the data, it's what other people would do. | 08 Jul 14:30 |
| spot | skvidal: not on that level. ;) | 08 Jul 14:30 |
| skvidal | 'give this contributor karma' | 08 Jul 14:30 |
| skvidal | no, I'm serious - in another db | 08 Jul 14:30 |
| notting | spot: bugzilla points? (not great karma, but exists) | 08 Jul 14:30 |
| h\h | spot, what about the ohloh kudu system? | 08 Jul 14:30 |
| f13 | yeah, that fits in with my method to promote people to "uberpackager" group | 08 Jul 14:30 |
| ctyler | you'd almost need each sig/subproject to define karma in their context | 08 Jul 14:31 |
| spot | ctyler: exactly. | 08 Jul 14:31 |
| stickster | notting: How do you promote ambassadors if it's BZ? | 08 Jul 14:31 |
| f13 | nod | 08 Jul 14:31 |
| notting | stickster: you don't. separate karma for separate subprojects, i suppose | 08 Jul 14:31 |
| f13 | there likely isn't any one single way to do this. | 08 Jul 14:31 |
| quaid | h\h: can you point at an explanation of the kudu system? | 08 Jul 14:31 |
| h\h | kudo | 08 Jul 14:31 |
| f13 | quaid: essentially it allows you to pat somebody on the back and write up a little nice note about them | 08 Jul 14:32 |
| f13 | ohloh can show for any account how many and what the content of kudo's they've received | 08 Jul 14:32 |
| quaid | ic | 08 Jul 14:32 |
| spevack | i have always thought that every time we plan a fudcon, we need to see who the people are geographically close by that maintain huge numbers of packages for us and invite them with the fully-sponsored rockstar treatment. Same for other major contribs outside packaging. | 08 Jul 14:32 |
| f13 | I could certainly see a Fedora kudo's board, maybe part of planet, that as peers give eachother kudos those are broadcasted on the kudo board | 08 Jul 14:32 |
| spevack | as we continue to get more budget for fudcons, this becomes more of a reality | 08 Jul 14:33 |
| spoleeba | f13, the problem with different groups having their own reward systems is...if we need to allocate any resources to underpin a reward process..how big of a group start to matter? A SIG with 3 people in it..does that get its own karma system? | 08 Jul 14:33 |
| f13 | spoleeba: why shoudl the package count matter? | 08 Jul 14:33 |
| spoleeba | f13, not package... people count | 08 Jul 14:33 |
| f13 | er | 08 Jul 14:33 |
| notting | spoleeba: perhaps sigs are responsible for their own metrics. delegate! | 08 Jul 14:33 |
| f13 | sorry | 08 Jul 14:33 |
| f13 | spevack: why should the package count matter? | 08 Jul 14:33 |
| notting | f13: in the absence of better metrics... | 08 Jul 14:34 |
| f13 | is a person who maintains 50 tiny packages any more of a rock star than a person who maintains 5 big packages with lots of updates? | 08 Jul 14:34 |
| spoleeba | notting, no you miss my point... do we let a 3 person SIG have equal presence with a 20 person SIG in whatever system we use? | 08 Jul 14:34 |
| spevack | f13: no, of course not. replace "package count" with some sort of better metric :) | 08 Jul 14:34 |
| h\h | quaid, http://www.ohloh.net/about/kudos | 08 Jul 14:34 |
| quaid | rockstar systems ... suck more than they are good | 08 Jul 14:34 |
| quaid | h\h: thx | 08 Jul 14:34 |
| spot | 08 Jul 14:34 | |
| * spot notes that this is a non-trivial problem to solve, which is why i've never solved it. ;) | 08 Jul 14:34 | |
| f13 | indeed | 08 Jul 14:35 |
| f13 | I would much rather leave it purely on a peer to peer basis | 08 Jul 14:35 |
| f13 | any peer can kudo or high five or whatever any other pper | 08 Jul 14:35 |
| f13 | peer | 08 Jul 14:35 |
| stickster | Maybe we should track meta-kudos. | 08 Jul 14:35 |
| f13 | one's account could keep track of those, or it could not, and we could broadcast those on the kudowall, or not | 08 Jul 14:35 |
| spoleeba | f13, which is why im just looking to expose aggregate metric trending..and not person-to-person info | 08 Jul 14:35 |
| f13 | spoleeba: then I think you're going to have to come up with specific uses for those metrics | 08 Jul 14:36 |
| spevack | 08 Jul 14:36 | |
| * spevack wonders if we should move on to the next question | 08 Jul 14:36 | |
| quaid | +1 | 08 Jul 14:36 |
| f13 | and not just leave them out there to be (ab)used by whomever. | 08 Jul 14:36 |
| spot | yep. next Q? | 08 Jul 14:36 |
| stickster | 1 | 08 Jul 14:36 |
| h\h | spoleeba, metrics for cool non-code contributions? | 08 Jul 14:36 |
| spevack | NEXT QUESTION -- inode0 points us to http://www.lanl.gov/roadrunner/ -- it runs Fedora, and what marketing possibilities might exist due to this? | 08 Jul 14:37 |
| spoleeba | h\h: we need to get a handle on what areas of "work" are growing relative to others | 08 Jul 14:37 |
| spoleeba | h\h, including the non technical work | 08 Jul 14:37 |
| skvidal | spevack: where does it say fedora? | 08 Jul 14:37 |
| spot | skvidal: lanl has said that it does, in several random places | 08 Jul 14:37 |
| skvidal | spot: okay. cool | 08 Jul 14:38 |
| spoleeba | h\h, not on a person by person basis...but area by area...trending the growth rates. So we can start to figure out if we need to do a recruitment drive for one area specifically as part of say f11 propoganda | 08 Jul 14:38 |
| h\h | spoleeba, ok | 08 Jul 14:38 |
| skvidal | spoleeba: do you know someone at lanl? | 08 Jul 14:38 |
| spot | sounds interesting. spevack should get right on it. ;) | 08 Jul 14:38 |
| skvidal | if not I mentioned hitting up tchung | 08 Jul 14:38 |
| spoleeba | skvidal, i probably know someone who knows someone | 08 Jul 14:38 |
| notting | well, first step would be to get them to mention it in press releases and non-random places, if possible | 08 Jul 14:38 |
| skvidal | and if not I can probably find some folks at the national labs | 08 Jul 14:38 |
| stickster | http://www.top500.org/system/9485 | 08 Jul 14:38 |
| spoleeba | skvidal, the peopel I know..dont do the admin stuff that keeps the compute farms actually running | 08 Jul 14:38 |
| f13 | jack's blog post about NASA using Fedora got lots of attention, we should certainly capatalize upon lanl, although I would hate to find out they're abusing Fedora in some way that we don't normally allow | 08 Jul 14:39 |
| stickster | The problem I've found (and experienced) in the Federal space is that it's very difficult for govvies to talk about this stuff | 08 Jul 14:39 |
| spot | i'm guessing its a heavily modified fedora, given that ibm is involved. :) | 08 Jul 14:39 |
| ctyler | bounce this to fedora-marketing-list? | 08 Jul 14:39 |
| spoleeba | the arctic supercomputer here runs fedora as well... i can reach into their little world and see if they can reach into lanl | 08 Jul 14:39 |
| stickster | ctyler: +1. | 08 Jul 14:39 |
| spevack | spot: i'm fine with adding this topic to our community architecture "big press stories we're hunting down" agenda | 08 Jul 14:39 |
| --- ChanServ (ChanServ@services.) changed mode: +v mdomsch_ | 08 Jul 14:40 | |
| skvidal | ctyler: nah | 08 Jul 14:40 |
| skvidal | I'd say rather than delegating it out | 08 Jul 14:40 |
| skvidal | find someone who knows someone in the org | 08 Jul 14:40 |
| spot | this is so cool, i ssh into this system and the dell fire alarm goes off | 08 Jul 14:40 |
| skvidal | it'll be easier of an approach | 08 Jul 14:40 |
| spot | i mean, hi matt! :) | 08 Jul 14:40 |
| stickster | skvidal: Usually that results in the same problem I mentioned above, only with more dead time in between. | 08 Jul 14:40 |
| spevack | ctyler: give it to me, greg, and jack to chase down and see if we know anyone, like skvidal says. IMHO. | 08 Jul 14:40 |
| mdomsch_ | 08 Jul 14:40 | |
| * mdomsch_ watches the firetruck drive up | 08 Jul 14:40 | |
| skvidal | spevack: +1 | 08 Jul 14:40 |
| spoleeba | skvidal, give me a couple of weeks | 08 Jul 14:40 |
| mdomsch_ | from the parking log | 08 Jul 14:40 |
| stickster | spoleeba: If you can get an actual govvie to talk about this in an interview, I'll give you a prize. | 08 Jul 14:41 |
| skvidal | spevack: If you hit any walls, bug me - I still know enough physics people I can probably find a connector there | 08 Jul 14:41 |
| spoleeba | skvidal, also HAARP runs on a mix of RHEL and Fedora... | 08 Jul 14:41 |
| skvidal | actually, you know who I do know | 08 Jul 14:41 |
| skvidal | most ofthe Scientific Linux people | 08 Jul 14:41 |
| skvidal | 08 Jul 14:41 | |
| * skvidal wonders if connie is still doing that... | 08 Jul 14:41 | |
| skvidal | they'll know the sysadmins at the various labs | 08 Jul 14:41 |
| f13 | I just want to make sure that before we make any loud noises about these cool uses of Fedora, that ti's uses we'd wish to promote, not Hey look they use Fedora; Oh, but they've replaced half the packages with propriatery stuff and... and... | 08 Jul 14:41 |
| skvidal | f13: which is why we want to talk to them directly | 08 Jul 14:42 |
| skvidal | so, agreed | 08 Jul 14:42 |
| ctyler | skvidal: my point was that f-m-l handles marketing, and this is a marketing thing | 08 Jul 14:42 |
| f13 | I'd be more than happy to let marketing handle that, if they keep the above in mind | 08 Jul 14:43 |
| stickster | skvidal: ctyler: f13: Several of the marketeers are here listening in as we speak ;-) | 08 Jul 14:43 |
| f13 | (don't spout without knowing the full details as to avoid any "whoops" incidences) | 08 Jul 14:43 |
| spoleeba | stickster, i can get an interview with the guys here who run the artic supercomputer | 08 Jul 14:43 |
| stickster | spoleeba: f-m-l away, then! | 08 Jul 14:43 |
| spoleeba | stickster, i'll use the marketting list to compile a list of questions | 08 Jul 14:43 |
| stickster | spoleeba: Brilliant. | 08 Jul 14:43 |
| spot | next? | 08 Jul 14:44 |
| spevack | f13: this particular case is something that would end up being vetted before any press goes out. | 08 Jul 14:44 |
| spevack | f13: as we would for anything "noteworthy" | 08 Jul 14:44 |
| spevack | next question is a simple one from former board member caillon | 08 Jul 14:44 |
| spevack | he would like nickserv authentication to be removed for fedora-board-public and fedora-board-meeting | 08 Jul 14:45 |
| spevack | 08 Jul 14:45 | |
| * spevack has a real question next :) | 08 Jul 14:45 | |
| spot | i'll take care of that after the meeting. | 08 Jul 14:45 |
| spevack | ok, next: | 08 Jul 14:45 |
| stickster | spot: Thanks | 08 Jul 14:45 |
| spevack | There was a long thread on f-a-b that touched on this | 08 Jul 14:45 |
| mdomsch_ | spot: stickster has ops | 08 Jul 14:45 |
| spevack | but the question was: | 08 Jul 14:45 |
| stickster | mdomsch_: Oh, can I do that from here? | 08 Jul 14:46 |
| spevack | what is the board going to do, or thinking about doing, to promote more diversity in nominations/appointments for the top committees? | 08 Jul 14:46 |
| * stickster goes to look it up | 08 Jul 14:46 | |
| spot | i'm going to bribe less people next time. | 08 Jul 14:46 |
| spot | i mean, uhh. | 08 Jul 14:46 |
| spoleeba | "top" committees? | 08 Jul 14:46 |
| spot | seriously though, are you asking us to influence the vote? | 08 Jul 14:46 |
| spoleeba | are we talking Board and fesco specifically? or is there more | 08 Jul 14:46 |
| spot | the best we can do is to try to get the word out more, encourage people to run | 08 Jul 14:47 |
| spoleeba | i want some frelling feedback from the frelling community during the election cycle..for candidates to speak to directly | 08 Jul 14:47 |
| f13 | making it easier to vote (thanks G!!!), making it easier to nominate ones self or somebody else, and making it obvious that there is a nomination process ongoing/voting ongoing. | 08 Jul 14:47 |
| stickster | There are some other changes that have been suggested, like term limits. | 08 Jul 14:48 |
| stickster | I think those got fairly broad support in the Board, fwiw. | 08 Jul 14:48 |
| spoleeba | term limits... a nomination process so you can suggest and endorse other people into running | 08 Jul 14:48 |
| f13 | ah yes, consecutive term limits with mandatory break periods | 08 Jul 14:48 |
| quaid | spevack: was the question "top committees" or the "Board"? I read "Board" in the other channel, and that is a difference | 08 Jul 14:48 |
| notting | spoleeba: i believe the word you're looking for is 'goad' | 08 Jul 14:48 |
| spevack | i think in a follow up there was suggestion that it is a problem in other big steering committees (like Fesco) | 08 Jul 14:49 |
| skvidal | notting: it's not 'shanghai'? | 08 Jul 14:49 |
| spevack | but the first question was just Board | 08 Jul 14:49 |
| stickster | spevack: I would like to see some proposals generated from outside the Board | 08 Jul 14:49 |
| skvidal | notting: 'voluntold' | 08 Jul 14:49 |
| spoleeba | why aren't more individuals endorsing candidates? Where's the labor and teamster union of Fedora land? | 08 Jul 14:49 |
| stickster | spoleeba: Careful, I think spevack's got a guy | 08 Jul 14:49 |
| --- ChanServ (ChanServ@services.) changed mode: +o spot | 08 Jul 14:50 | |
| spevack | inode0 suggests that nominations to fill empty board seats are excellent ways of providing recognition | 08 Jul 14:50 |
| --- spot (i=spot@redhat/spot) changed mode: -r | 08 Jul 14:50 | |
| --- ChanServ (ChanServ@services.) changed mode: +r | 08 Jul 14:50 | |
| f13 | I think I'd like to see an anonymous survey of why people didn't vote, and the results of that survey made public | 08 Jul 14:50 |
| f13 | right now we're mostly guessing at why people didn't vote, or why people didn't run for election | 08 Jul 14:50 |
| h\h | f13, survey from people, who don't vote .. hmm, how do you get them to fill out the form? :) | 08 Jul 14:51 |
| spoleeba | "you are doing a heck of a job doing what you are doing..so to reward you..we are going to appoint you to this committee so you can get less of what you are doing well done and spend more time wringing your hands over unsolvable problems" | 08 Jul 14:51 |
| skvidal | h\h: census workers :) | 08 Jul 14:51 |
| f13 | h\h: great question, we won't get everybody. But I bet we'll get some people to comment. | 08 Jul 14:51 |
| skvidal | let's be fair about a few things, though | 08 Jul 14:52 |
| --- ChanServ (ChanServ@services.) changed mode: -r | 08 Jul 14:52 | |
| quaid | more likely those who care and had a reason, v. pure apathy | 08 Jul 14:52 |
| skvidal | 1. I bet a number of folks just forgot about the election | 08 Jul 14:52 |
| quaid | (longer voting window would be OK) | 08 Jul 14:52 |
| skvidal | 2. a number of folks probably didn't realize they could vote - b/c it was a little confusing as to who was allowed | 08 Jul 14:52 |
| skvidal | so direct reminders might help | 08 Jul 14:52 |
| spoleeba | skvidal, i can fix that... auto dialing of asterick numbers in our new call infrastructure before the election | 08 Jul 14:52 |
| skvidal | and a bit more build up before it | 08 Jul 14:52 |
| stickster | Let's also consider the part of the question that's more goal-oriented | 08 Jul 14:53 |
| skvidal | spoleeba: that's nice - but I meant more seriously - we can do some emailing to people in fas | 08 Jul 14:53 |
| --- spot (i=spot@redhat/spot) changed mode: -o spot | 08 Jul 14:53 | |
| skvidal | and we should | 08 Jul 14:53 |
| quaid | skvidal: I tried to do that, fwiw, but couldn't get the nail hammered in -- there really is no way right now to alert all contributors about something | 08 Jul 14:53 |
| spoleeba | skvidal, why stop at emails...we have the power to call people | 08 Jul 14:53 |
| quaid | or if there is, I still haven't heard about it, and I've been asking | 08 Jul 14:53 |
| skvidal | quaid: there is - it's not trivial - we shall make it trivial | 08 Jul 14:53 |
| skvidal | quaid: I'll take that task to drive it along | 08 Jul 14:53 |
| quaid | spevack: if Fedora starts calling me on stuff like this, I'll drive to Server Beach and yank asterisk from the rack myself | 08 Jul 14:53 |
| quaid | skvidal: thank you | 08 Jul 14:54 |
| spoleeba | quaid, dont you want to hear from each and every candidate personally on the phone? | 08 Jul 14:54 |
| quaid | skvidal: agreed it needs to be a heavily moderated comms channel, but we do need it. | 08 Jul 14:54 |
| quaid | spoleeba: only if I call them myself | 08 Jul 14:54 |
| spoleeba | quaid, doesnt that show significant commitment | 08 Jul 14:54 |
| f13 | Hi, this is the topic over here, would be nice if ya'll came back to me. | 08 Jul 14:54 |
| spoleeba | quaid, or would you rather not have the candidates bother trying to find out what you care about as a contributor? | 08 Jul 14:54 |
| spoleeba | quaid, YOU have a duty! | 08 Jul 14:54 |
| stickster | We'll get further down this road by limiting the reductio ad absurdum | 08 Jul 14:54 |
| skvidal | stickster: +1 | 08 Jul 14:55 |
| ctyler | 08 Jul 14:55 | |
| * ctyler notes that sending N wav-attached-voicemail e-mails takes a lot more bandwidth than sending N text e-mails | 08 Jul 14:55 | |
| spoleeba | stickster, seriously... we need input from the community to guide candidates..before the election | 08 Jul 14:55 |
| spevack | comments from caillon that i'd like to transcribe: | 08 Jul 14:55 |
| spoleeba | stickster, community generated questions and issues..are the only really fair way for candidates to be directly compared | 08 Jul 14:55 |
| stickster | As I said before, we should consider the part of the question that's goal-oriented: What is the desired end-state of the Board composition? | 08 Jul 14:56 |
| skvidal | spoleeba: that's fine - quit harping on the asterisk thing - it's just silly | 08 Jul 14:56 |
| spoleeba | stickster, everyone comes in with their own agenda..what matters is how the candidates speak to community issues... | 08 Jul 14:56 |
| spevack | caillon, in summary, says: FESCOs scope is still to broad, the tasks need to happen, but should be going to smaller targetted groups, not one all-encompassing group | 08 Jul 14:56 |
| spot | is there a question in there? | 08 Jul 14:57 |
| f13 | I think that's a different topic all together | 08 Jul 14:57 |
| spoleeba | how fesco wants to delegate out its work is completely up to fesco. | 08 Jul 14:57 |
| spevack | spot: not really... caillon and f13 were having a longer talk in the -public room and i asked him to try to summarize his comments in something short. | 08 Jul 14:57 |
| spevack | i guess the question is "does Fedora need a re-org, and how do we go about answering that and/or doing it transparently and smartly?" | 08 Jul 14:58 |
| spot | he should really raise these issues with fesco. | 08 Jul 14:58 |
| quaid | spot +1 | 08 Jul 14:58 |
| notting | because what fesco really needs is a discussion of its purpose :) | 08 Jul 14:59 |
| f13 | spoleeba: although I don't think I'd much like to as the board appoint a task to a group of elected people only to have them send it off to a set of appointed people who may or may not have any bearing on community desires. | 08 Jul 14:59 |
| spot | if fesco wants to subdivide into groups, then whatever. | 08 Jul 14:59 |
| spot | i dont think i care how it gets done as long as it does, and we have a hierarchy to know whos supposed to be doing it. | 08 Jul 14:59 |
| stickster | spot: spevack: FESCo claimed responsibility for a set of tasks, basically the technical execution of the platform | 08 Jul 15:00 |
| spevack | stickster: caillon would like voice | 08 Jul 15:00 |
| spevack | stickster: and i can't give it to him. i think he doesn't like my summary of his summary :) | 08 Jul 15:00 |
| --- ChanServ (ChanServ@services.) changed mode: +v caillon | 08 Jul 15:00 | |
| spevack | caillon: you have voice | 08 Jul 15:01 |
| stickster | If their vision of doing that means appointing SIGs to handle specific issues, that ought to be acceptable | 08 Jul 15:01 |
| caillon | fesco was sort of put in a "tell us what you do/want to do" and basically recited off what they are doing currently. there has already been grumbling that it's the wrong thing to do. on top of that, the baord has since gotten involved. I do not feel that FESCo is the right committee to make the call as to what they should do at the moment. | 08 Jul 15:02 |
| f13 | stickster: if FESCo only wants to exist to offload their work to other people, why can't hte board just offload directly? | 08 Jul 15:02 |
| caillon | the tasks still need to happen, though! | 08 Jul 15:02 |
| spot | caillon: i love how "there has already been grumbling" wasn't at the FESCo meeting. | 08 Jul 15:02 |
| caillon | but I think it would make more sense for them to happen by smaller, more targetted groups. | 08 Jul 15:02 |
| caillon | I might be a docs/marketing person that is interested in participating in the feature process but don't care about packgae guidelines, conflict resolution, etc | 08 Jul 15:03 |
| spoleeba | f13, i have absolutely no problem with appointments to delegate specific work..and the appointments retire after a set time...delegating work doesn't mean creating lifetime supreme court tenured positions | 08 Jul 15:03 |
| quaid | caillon: I don't get why this is something the Board should dictate? | 08 Jul 15:03 |
| quaid | heck | 08 Jul 15:03 |
| spot | i'm not sure it would be appropriate for the board to force FESCo to subdivide | 08 Jul 15:03 |
| spot | i really think you should take this up with FESCo | 08 Jul 15:04 |
| quaid | propose an amendment to the feature process to allow subject-specific groups to handle them | 08 Jul 15:04 |
| f13 | spoleeba: what happens when 'specific' work becomes 'all' work? | 08 Jul 15:04 |
| spoleeba | f13, you have an election cycle | 08 Jul 15:04 |
| spoleeba | f13, why are we stuck on the belief that elections = ability to handle the work necessary? | 08 Jul 15:04 |
| f13 | FESCo already voted to allow specific groups weigh in on specific sections of the feature, like QA gets to ack/nack the test plan area. | 08 Jul 15:05 |
| spoleeba | f13, elections at best provide oversight... | 08 Jul 15:05 |
| spoleeba | f13, good for them | 08 Jul 15:05 |
| f13 | spoleeba: I'm not saying that vote was wrong, I think you're misreading me | 08 Jul 15:05 |
| spoleeba | f13, and if fesco doesnt like how QA is handling it..they can yank them out of the process | 08 Jul 15:06 |
| caillon | quaid, because the board has already stepped in, various members of fesco had previous raised it to the board, and nothing has changed even after it was raised on fesco's list and to the board. i really don't think anything will change by raising it with fesco. | 08 Jul 15:06 |
| f13 | what I'm saying is if FESCo wants the board to tell it what to do, and the only thing we've so far told them to do they want to offload to somebody else... | 08 Jul 15:06 |
| f13 | what'st he point of FESCO? | 08 Jul 15:06 |
| caillon | f13, FESCo already expressed that. | 08 Jul 15:06 |
| f13 | caillon: /part/ of fesco. | 08 Jul 15:06 |
| notting | huh? | 08 Jul 15:06 |
| caillon | the board shrugged it off by saying "you tell us what we should tell you to do" | 08 Jul 15:06 |
| quaid | no | 08 Jul 15:06 |
| spoleeba | caillon, i dont tell anyone what they should do | 08 Jul 15:06 |
| notting | f13: i'm not parsing what you're saying | 08 Jul 15:06 |
| f13 | but hey, lets have this argument again, for another week or 3 | 08 Jul 15:06 |
| f13 | that should be fun. | 08 Jul 15:06 |
| quaid | "you tell us what you want to do" | 08 Jul 15:06 |
| quaid | caillon: it's different | 08 Jul 15:06 |
| spoleeba | caillon, i need individual subprojects to claim an area of work | 08 Jul 15:07 |
| quaid | caillon: then we can assign the stuff to someone else if they don't want to do soemething | 08 Jul 15:07 |
| spot | fwiw, FESCo did tell the board what it wanted to do | 08 Jul 15:07 |
| notting | and the board said 'that's ok' | 08 Jul 15:07 |
| spot | caillon just thinks that is too broad. | 08 Jul 15:07 |
| spot | i'm not about to override them. | 08 Jul 15:07 |
| spoleeba | spot, if its too broad...fesco can come back and tell us its too broad and we can stand up anothe group to take on the segment they dont want | 08 Jul 15:08 |
| spoleeba | spot, i dont think anyone expects this to be the end of the tuning | 08 Jul 15:08 |
| spot | sure, but FESCo hasn't failed yet. | 08 Jul 15:08 |
| spot | imho, of course. | 08 Jul 15:08 |
| spot | nor have they come to us asking to lift the burden that they defined for themselves. | 08 Jul 15:08 |
| spoleeba | spot, im not saying anyone's failed. I'm saying there is no sense in carving things up.. until we either know its too much work..or we have a another group who is working in the same area and there is conflict | 08 Jul 15:09 |
| caillon | spot, not as a collective, no. some people have. | 08 Jul 15:09 |
| spoleeba | spot, the key is that some group has to be willing to claim the area.. we cant mandate anyone do anything | 08 Jul 15:09 |
| spot | caillon: now you're just name calling. | 08 Jul 15:09 |
| spot | i dont think that's very productive and definitely off-topic. | 08 Jul 15:10 |
| * stickster would like people to take a breath before we continue here. | 08 Jul 15:10 | |
| caillon | spot, I am physically complaining as a member of fesco. | 08 Jul 15:10 |
| spot | caillon: and yet, you haven't complained to fesco | 08 Jul 15:10 |
| spot | unless i missed a meeting or 5. | 08 Jul 15:10 |
| ctyler | stickster: I regret that I must step out. will read scrollback later. | 08 Jul 15:11 |
| quaid | clearly, if someone in FESCo doesn't like their mission, they can work to change it or vote with their feet. | 08 Jul 15:11 |
| stickster | We're getting to the point where this is unproductive as a Board meeting. | 08 Jul 15:11 |
| caillon | I complained on the joint board/fesco meeting | 08 Jul 15:11 |
| quaid | stickster: depends on your definition of productive :) | 08 Jul 15:11 |
| stickster | zing! | 08 Jul 15:11 |
| quaid | stickster: part of the reason for this Q&A is to air out opinions and personalities | 08 Jul 15:11 |
| quaid | stickster: e.g. so people can see that the Board doesn't say shit in private that it doesn't in public, or whatever | 08 Jul 15:12 |
| spot | are there other questions? i don't think there is an "answer" that the board can give here. | 08 Jul 15:12 |
| f13 | inode0: has brought up a point to this topic. | 08 Jul 15:12 |
| f13 | we don't currently have an official line that allows for open nominations, the current statement is self nomination. | 08 Jul 15:12 |
| spoleeba | spot, i could be blunter | 08 Jul 15:12 |
| spevack | spot: there were no other questions in the queue. Though i prepared a few of my own, in case there weren't any | 08 Jul 15:12 |
| spoleeba | spot, but im not sure that's gonna help | 08 Jul 15:12 |
| spevack | spot: i could ask them, or not. :) | 08 Jul 15:12 |
| f13 | Is there any reason why we couldn't allow open nomination? | 08 Jul 15:12 |
| quaid | f13: I see no reason | 08 Jul 15:13 |
| f13 | (in practice the nominee would have to accept the nomination anyway to get on the ballot I would think) | 08 Jul 15:13 |
| spevack | 08 Jul 15:13 | |
| * spevack feels like Wolf Blitzer or something. I want to moderate the first ever Fedora Board Election Debate | 08 Jul 15:13 | |
| quaid | right | 08 Jul 15:13 |
| spot | as long as the person nominated is willing. | 08 Jul 15:13 |
| f13 | ok. | 08 Jul 15:13 |
| stickster | It doesn't seem problematic to me. | 08 Jul 15:13 |
| spoleeba | f13, open nominations are fine...as long as the people who end up being nominated accept it | 08 Jul 15:13 |
| quaid | can we call that a consensus? :D | 08 Jul 15:13 |
| f13 | awesome. | 08 Jul 15:13 |
| caillon | spot, no, no answer expected. just saying it's a problem, and i do not have the confidence that fesco will magically fix itself, after bpepple and i started the discussion a few months ago, and the recent developments where the board got involved. | 08 Jul 15:13 |
| spoleeba | f13, by doing the same sort of stuff the self-nominated people do | 08 Jul 15:13 |
| spoleeba | f13, to indicate their candidacy | 08 Jul 15:13 |
| f13 | inode0: if you noticed, we just approved open nomination. Can you take an action item to help us (the board) find places where we'd need to document that open nominiation as well as self nomination is acceptable? | 08 Jul 15:14 |
| f13 | inode0: (you can answer in -public) | 08 Jul 15:14 |
| caillon | anyway, i guess i'm done. someone can -v me | 08 Jul 15:14 |
| stickster | spevack: Maybe you can ask a question? | 08 Jul 15:15 |
| spoleeba | f13, in fact I would go further and add an area in the bio info for candidates which had a place for personal contributor endorsements | 08 Jul 15:15 |
| stickster | We're over time, but I'm not going anywhere | 08 Jul 15:15 |
| spevack | stickster: here's another question for the Board | 08 Jul 15:15 |
| stickster | It's up to the other members whether they can stick around | 08 Jul 15:15 |
| spoleeba | f13, if you nominate someone..surely you can add your name to their endorsement section | 08 Jul 15:15 |
| f13 | f13: sure thing | 08 Jul 15:15 |
| spevack | Aside from this current topic, which obviously needs more discussion (FESCO/engineering organization in general), what are some ot the other decisions that the Board will be publicizing in the next few weeks? in other words, what's currently brewing? | 08 Jul 15:15 |
| f13 | inode0: thanks a ton! | 08 Jul 15:16 |
| f13 | <crickets> | 08 Jul 15:16 |
| stickster | We've started talking about trademark guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Board/Meetings/2008-07-01#Trademark_Guidelines | 08 Jul 15:17 |
| spevack | i have other questions :) | 08 Jul 15:17 |
| spot | 08 Jul 15:17 | |
| * spot has been here for a week now. i haven't had time to brew much. | 08 Jul 15:17 | |
| spoleeba | at the board level? I'm not actively persuing anything that has reached firestorm panic level | 08 Jul 15:17 |
| spoleeba | i still have to watch the SPIN SIG process development | 08 Jul 15:17 |
| spoleeba | I'm watching the development of irc help re-org | 08 Jul 15:17 |
| stickster | I'd like to have trademark guidelines that put more use in the hands of the community | 08 Jul 15:18 |
| spoleeba | i'm sucking up to JonRob and his miro channel | 08 Jul 15:18 |
| spevack | spoleeba: to what extent are you driving the irc help re-org, or is it just passive? | 08 Jul 15:18 |
| f13 | I'm watching FESCo and that whole ball of fun | 08 Jul 15:18 |
| spoleeba | spevack, im not leading it...delibrately | 08 Jul 15:18 |
| spevack | spoleeba: is it moving, though? | 08 Jul 15:18 |
| spoleeba | spevack, they have draft guidance | 08 Jul 15:18 |
| spevack | 08 Jul 15:19 | |
| * spevack doesn't know the answer, it's not a planted question :) | 08 Jul 15:19 | |
| spevack | spoleeba: great | 08 Jul 15:19 |
| stickster | nirik is doing a lot of the organizational work for irc help revamp. | 08 Jul 15:19 |
| spot | 08 Jul 15:19 | |
| * spot is afk | 08 Jul 15:19 | |
| spoleeba | spevack, basically im watching for process breakdown..and i'll wade in at that point | 08 Jul 15:19 |
| stickster | He's got a bunch of people involved from throughout the community | 08 Jul 15:19 |
| spevack | spoleeba: if someone wants to see/participate, what's the URL they should go to? | 08 Jul 15:19 |
| spoleeba | spevack, that's a good question...they are doing irc meetings | 08 Jul 15:19 |
| stickster | There's been threads on fedora-devel-list IIRC. | 08 Jul 15:20 |
| stickster | spevack: I can find some info for you to follow up if desired. | 08 Jul 15:21 |
| spevack | 08 Jul 15:21 | |
| * spevack doesn't have anything else -- we're 20 minutes over time anyway, and there were no other questions from the public channel. The last few I've just made up myself. | 08 Jul 15:21 | |
| stickster | spevack: Now's a good time to call it then. | 08 Jul 15:21 |
| stickster | All right, thanks everyone;. | 08 Jul 15:22 |
| spoleeba | User:Kevin/DRAFT-IRCSupportConduct | 08 Jul 15:22 |
| stickster | spoleeba: Thank you | 08 Jul 15:22 |
| spevack | thanks all | 08 Jul 15:23 |
| f13 | thanks! | 08 Jul 15:23 |
| stickster | Thanks for coming, everyone. We'll post a log shortly at the normal page: Board/Meetings | 08 Jul 15:23 |
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