From Fedora Project Wiki
| quaid | <meeting> | 12:05 |
|---|---|---|
| -!- quaid changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: Fedora Docs - roll call, greets | 12:05 | |
| * quaid is here :) | 12:05 | |
| * ianweller | 12:05 | |
| * jsmith is here | 12:06 | |
| * Sparks here | 12:06 | |
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| quaid | agenda is DocsProject/SteeringCommittee/Meetings#Agenda_for_Next_Meeting | 12:06 |
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| G | I'm here :) | 12:06 |
| * ke4qqq is here | 12:06 | |
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| -!- quaid changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: Fedora Docs - Wiki namespaces discussion | 12:07 | |
| stickster | quaid: I just added something to that agenda | 12:07 |
| quaid | ok | 12:07 |
| quaid | http://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-docs-list/2008-July/msg00092.html | 12:07 |
| quaid | that is the RFC currently under discussion | 12:07 |
| G | quaid: might be something to pull out my original e-mail to docs/websites too | 12:08 |
| * ianweller wonders whether we should say "Documentation Project" or "Docs Project" now that we're moving to spaces/full names | 12:08 | |
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| G | quaid: http://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-docs-list/2008-July/msg00015.html - the original namespace discussion | 12:09 |
| * quaid was replying onlist too | 12:09 | |
| quaid | ianweller: people say Docs, like it or not, so I gave up on that a bit ago; but worth standardizing, yes :) | 12:09 |
| * ianweller wonders how google-friendly that is | 12:10 | |
| quaid | G: yes, but that is a bit farther down in the agenda | 12:10 |
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| G | quaid: errr the 'namespaces' got me, oop :0 | 12:10 |
| quaid | ianweller: hard to say; techie people seem to always use 'docs' but documenters prefer 'documentation' | 12:10 |
| quaid | G: yep, sorry :) | 12:11 |
| -!- quaid changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: Fedora Docs - wiki page naming discussion | 12:11 | |
| quaid | that's what I meant :) | 12:11 |
| * ianweller googles for "fedora documentation" and sees if he gets DocsProject. | 12:11 | |
| quaid | ok, so are there any questions about the RFC? | 12:11 |
| ianweller | we know why, and we know where to move things. how to do it though? | 12:12 |
| quaid | one thing before that | 12:12 |
| quaid | is everyone comfortable with Docs making this decision and putting it forward as done to the contributor community? | 12:13 |
| Sparks | +1 | 12:13 |
| quaid | v. sending an RFC to f-devel-l :D | 12:13 |
| ianweller | no. we have an RFC, we need a policy that contributors can follow, i think | 12:13 |
| G | quaid: I disagree with mass transclusion btw | 12:13 |
| G | (of content pages) | 12:13 |
| ke4qqq | quaid: +1 | 12:13 |
| ianweller | i don't think what we have now is in policy state | 12:13 |
| quaid | G: you mean, my idea of building a guide is mass transclusion? | 12:13 |
| quaid | ianweller: right, but ... | 12:13 |
| ianweller | and, to the new user, i think it's a bit confusing | 12:14 |
| quaid | the biggest point of contention is going to be the stupid naming | 12:14 |
| quaid | +1 that it is *not* a policy | 12:14 |
| G | quaid: correct | 12:14 |
| quaid | and needs sto be | 12:14 |
| ianweller | that's a good "ok here's how we're *moving* it" page, but we need something that says "this is how the wiki is organized, deal with it" | 12:14 |
| ianweller | yeah | 12:14 |
| quaid | G: is it that much of a performance hit difference? | 12:14 |
| quaid | I thought each section was separate in the db anyway | 12:15 |
| quaid | ianweller: but are you comfortable with us making all that policy and not taking argument about it? | 12:15 |
| ianweller | yes. | 12:15 |
| quaid | I mean, the Packaging Committee has a process to get changes approved; this would be like that, don't just bitch on a mailing list but bring a real proposal. | 12:16 |
| quaid | stickster: how about you? | 12:16 |
| G | quaid: I think the difference is, it can pull an entire page in one query, where as for transclusions it had to keep making queries | 12:16 |
| quaid | G: ok | 12:16 |
| stickster | Sorry, there is a conversation going on here that I am trying to shut out so I can catch up here | 12:16 |
| G | I may be wrong, I havn't had my morning coffee and I'm just running off memory :) | 12:16 |
| quaid | g: it might have been a mis-guided solution to a non-problem; definitely we should set a policy on that, maybe a limit on the # of sections to transclude? | 12:17 |
| quaid | G: ouch, sorry, it _is_ early there | 12:17 |
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| stickster | quaid: OK, the RFC is to use "real languge" for page titles, and categories to organize pages ? | 12:17 |
| G | quaid: I think the proper solution would be to say: split the document in three bits or so (to avoid it getting too large) | 12:18 |
| ianweller | G: split the document in, say, 20KB bits, so that it's unlikely for pages to go over 32KB? | 12:18 |
| G | "General Policies", "RPM Issues", "Technical Policies" type thing | 12:18 |
| quaid | stickster: ok, here's the question I asked you: | 12:19 |
| * ianweller still doesn't know what sort of performance hit transcluding lots of pages takes, and wonders if #mediawiki knows | 12:19 | |
| G | ianweller: I dont consider the 32KB rule as a general policy | 12:19 |
| * stickster apologizes, too many concurrent inputs :-) | 12:19 | |
| quaid | "Are we OK with Docs making the policy for wiki structure, including naming, and pushing it forward as "done until you formally help change it"?" | 12:19 |
| G | the 32KB warning comes from some browsers not been able to cope with it iirc | 12:19 |
| ianweller | G: well, right. so in my mind, anything larger than 32KB is right out | 12:19 |
| quaid | ianweller: but you said Packaging_Guidelines needs to be one page :) | 12:20 |
| G | ianweller: I don't know of any browsers these days that have such a problem | 12:20 |
| stickster | quaid: +1 on that. | 12:20 |
| quaid | stickster: ok! :) | 12:20 |
| stickster | quaid: The day belongs to those who seize it. | 12:20 |
| * ianweller is a hypocrite again, damn! | 12:20 | |
| quaid | carpe seizem | 12:20 |
| * ianweller goes to get more tea | 12:20 | |
| quaid | ok, then | 12:20 |
| quaid | just to recap: | 12:20 |
| stickster | ianweller wants to eat his cake and have it too :-D | 12:20 |
| quaid | * we agree we are empowered to do this | 12:20 |
| G | quaid: I disagree with transcluding it, I'd favour logical splitting :) | 12:20 |
| * ianweller goes back through his head and rehashes out what he wants | 12:21 | |
| quaid | * we need to convert the Help:Wiki_structure to a policy page | 12:21 |
| stickster | G: I think you can really do both at will. | 12:21 |
| stickster | It's kind of a red herring issue. | 12:21 |
| G | (It's currently 52KB so a split in two - General Packaging Guidelines, Technical Packaging Guidelines | 12:22 |
| quaid | ok, that's later in the agnedna :) | 12:22 |
| quaid | let's finish with page naming | 12:22 |
| quaid | Ian's point on list about not splitting the P_G too small is noted/OK | 12:23 |
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| ianweller | right now we already split P_G into different sections for specific languages, btw | 12:23 |
| quaid | so, on naming | 12:23 |
| quaid | an no Sub/Pages | 12:24 |
| quaid | all happy with that? | 12:24 |
| quaid | I think we need a bit of list discussion, too, fwiw | 12:24 |
| G | I disagree | 12:24 |
| G | I have a technical arguement too that I just remembered | 12:24 |
| ianweller | is the no Sub/Pages a soft limit, meaning we still have Artwork/Join? | 12:24 |
| ianweller | G: mm? | 12:24 |
| quaid | ianweller: not a soft limit IMO | 12:24 |
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| ianweller | quaid: same here. /me wants no slashes ;) | 12:25 |
| ianweller | except in non-main namespaces | 12:25 |
| G | Legal have asked us, to make sure Legal/* is read only to everyone but people in the Legal group, Packaging/* is read only to people except in Packaging group, we can't just shut them out | 12:25 |
| quaid | I want to see one or another method, and tightly enforced | 12:25 |
| quaid | G: how do ACLs work? | 12:25 |
| G | I proposed separte namespaces from them at inception but was told "ewww thats ugly" | 12:25 |
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| G | *for them | 12:25 |
| ianweller | G: can we ACL by category? | 12:26 |
| * ianweller presumes not | 12:26 | |
| G | quaid: Packaging/* | 12:26 |
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| quaid | G: what about Packaging* | 12:26 |
| quaid | and Legal* | 12:26 |
| G | ianweller: nope, MW doesn't allow that type of call | 12:26 |
| quaid | without the / | 12:26 |
| ianweller | quaid: but then we might run into other issues. | 12:26 |
| G | quaid: I wouldn't be sure, but I'd feel that was an ugly solution | 12:26 |
| quaid | well, sure, if someone wants to write "Legally_thinking_about_open_source" they cannot | 12:26 |
| ianweller | i *personally* think that namespaces could/should/must be used | 12:27 |
| ianweller | for cases such as these | 12:27 |
| quaid | ianweller: you mean | 12:27 |
| quaid | Namespace:s | 12:27 |
| quaid | not Name/Space | 12:27 |
| ianweller | quaid: yes. | 12:27 |
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| ianweller | i am not sure how people decided that Name/Space meant namespace :/ | 12:27 |
| ianweller | (no offense to anyone) | 12:27 |
| quaid | ianweller: ha! | 12:28 |
| G | and you've got to consider that "Packaging:Foo" is going to have the exact same effect as "Packaging/Foo" | 12:28 |
| quaid | ianweller: um, we had that term in general usebefore Mediawiki was born :) | 12:28 |
| ianweller | quaid: oh ok. | 12:28 |
| quaid | G: 'effect'? | 12:28 |
| Sparks | In MW... What's the difference between Docs/Page and Docs:Page? | 12:28 |
| quaid | Sparks: search is in specific namespaces | 12:28 |
| ianweller | Sparks: you can decide to include/exclude certain Namespace:s in search. | 12:28 |
| G | quaid: yuckyness in Category sorts etc iirc | 12:28 |
| quaid | Sparks: we can reset the default, but that doesn't change it for existing users | 12:28 |
| ianweller | G: can't you fix that? | 12:29 |
| ianweller | potentially with wikibot? | 12:29 |
| ke4qqq | quaid: yes but you can change default search | 12:29 |
| quaid | ke4qqq: not for existing users aiui | 12:29 |
| G | quaid: we can change it for existing users | 12:29 |
| quaid | we _are_ going to change it, one time we hope | 12:29 |
| quaid | G: oh, ok | 12:29 |
| G | quaid: I said that during one of the other discussions | 12:29 |
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| quaid | G: thx, I forgot | 12:29 |
| G | quaid: but I'd perfer to hold off on that until we get the l10n wikis sorted | 12:29 |
| quaid | here's my thinking then ... | 12:30 |
| quaid | on ACLs | 12:30 |
| quaid | if Legal needs a protected space, move it off the wiki | 12:30 |
| ianweller | quaid: we tried pushing that to them at the beginning too | 12:30 |
| quaid | if Packaging needs a guide that cannot be edited by the masses, move it off the wiki | 12:30 |
| ianweller | since wikis are not made for ACLs. | 12:30 |
| Sparks | quaid: If you start moving people off the wiki then how will anyone know where to look for inforamtion? | 12:30 |
| quaid | Sparks: the wiki is not the sole source of info | 12:30 |
| ianweller | but they certainly did not like that. at all. | 12:30 |
| G | quaid: that in my opinion isn't a good solution | 12:31 |
| quaid | Sparks: docs.fp.o/release-notes for example | 12:31 |
| quaid | ianweller, G why? | 12:31 |
| quaid | oh, they want the ease of a wiki but not have it be a wiki? | 12:31 |
| quaid | get a CMS, I say | 12:31 |
| Sparks | quaid: Yeah, which is one reason why I think people have ahard time finding information | 12:31 |
| ianweller | yes. | 12:31 |
| ianweller | quaid: hehe | 12:31 |
| ianweller | of course! | 12:31 |
| quaid | Sparks: the wiki needs to link to the rest of the world, too' we cannot put all in the wiki, it sucks too much for content management | 12:31 |
| G | quaid: that sort of stuff changes frequently and a wiki is a good way to display such information | 12:32 |
| quaid | G: it actually doesn't change that frequently | 12:32 |
| ianweller | (should we get some people who work on Legal/* and Packaging/* stuff's input?) | 12:32 |
| G | quaid: parts of the Packaging/* area have a bit of turnover I've seen | 12:32 |
| * ianweller just had the idea of shoving the packaging guidelines into docbook, in a repo on fedorahosted | 12:33 | |
| * ianweller notes that that idea is *not* going to be popular | 12:33 | |
| quaid | G: if they are active, why cannot they watch the pages like the rest of us do? | 12:33 |
| quaid | ianweller: if they need ACLs, maybe that is the best thing | 12:33 |
| quaid | here | 12:33 |
| ianweller | quaid: i think so. | 12:33 |
| quaid | here's what I'm getting at: | 12:33 |
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| quaid | we CANNOT make our naming decisions based on these corner cases | 12:33 |
| quaid | that are leftover from previous bad decisions | 12:33 |
| quaid | in the previous wiki. | 12:33 |
| quaid | we CAN make an exception | 12:34 |
| ianweller | agreed. | 12:34 |
| quaid | and allow Legal/ and Packaging/ | 12:34 |
| G | I think thats what we need to do really | 12:34 |
| ianweller | (but only for now, imho) | 12:34 |
| quaid | but, G, really, is it worth carrying on that travesty for all pages? | 12:34 |
| G | for now anyway | 12:34 |
| G | quaid: How about this: | 12:34 |
| ianweller | there's a better solution, and we can decide on that with the respective name/space owners later | 12:34 |
| G | * Allow Legal/ Packaging/ as exceptions for now | 12:34 |
| G | * Approve Legal: Packaging: if they want it (but say it's an equally ugly solution) and recommend they incorporate stuff into the websites or documentation | 12:35 |
| ianweller | +1 | 12:35 |
| quaid | +1, with the caveat that we can go get spot's input before entirely granting the exception | 12:36 |
| quaid | (since spot is the dude leading both of those sections) | 12:36 |
| ianweller | yes. | 12:36 |
| G | * When the l10n wikis are put in, then change everyones default search to add those namespaces | 12:36 |
| G | (and add the namespace then) | 12:36 |
| ianweller | G: we need to i18n namespaces too, right? | 12:37 |
| quaid | ianweller: it's just l10n, aiui | 12:37 |
| G | no | 12:37 |
| quaid | we use i18n to l10n the pages | 12:37 |
| ianweller | well | 12:37 |
| ianweller | what i mean is | 12:38 |
| ianweller | change the name of the namespace into whatever it is for the respective language | 12:38 |
| ianweller | just keep the same ID numbers in the database at the very least | 12:38 |
| G | for most cases thats done, and it'd be a requirement of the l10n teams to do such a task before the wiki is created | 12:38 |
| ianweller | excellent | 12:38 |
| G | I've already discussed quite a bit of the implementation stuff like this with couf | 12:39 |
| quaid | cool | 12:39 |
| quaid | any more on this naming? | 12:39 |
| quaid | do we think we have consensus here? | 12:40 |
| ianweller | i think we're good. | 12:40 |
| G | quaid: yeah, but we really need to look into the Legal/ Packaging/ stuff a bit more | 12:40 |
| quaid | G: I know you mentally prefer Sub/Page, and I do think many people agree, but the l10n need in the end was a big persuader for me | 12:40 |
| ianweller | then again, it's just the three (four?) of us talking about it, from what i can tell | 12:40 |
| quaid | i.e., Artwork/Join has impedence mismatch with what that page actually is, Join_the_Art_project | 12:41 |
| quaid | ianweller: carpe diem, etc. | 12:41 |
| G | quaid: FreeDistribution is another one that uses ACLs on their subpage | 12:41 |
| * ianweller yawns | 12:41 | |
| ianweller | ;) | 12:41 |
| G | quaid: it's a case of, I think in most cases subpages look nicer | 12:41 |
| ianweller | G: so should we change your proposal from Legal/* and Packaging/* to whatever happens to be in the HNP ACL at the moment? | 12:41 |
| quaid | wtf is FreeDistribution? | 12:42 |
| G | quaid: the Free CDs folks | 12:42 |
| G | they ACL a couple of the pages | 12:42 |
| quaid | I'd want to go to each group and find out why they need ACLs | 12:42 |
| quaid | well, a couple can be just done manually, right? | 12:43 |
| G | even Infrastructure have ACL'd pages | 12:43 |
| quaid | the exception is where an entire set of content needs ACLs | 12:43 |
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| G | quaid: correct | 12:43 |
| * G would really like to do away with HNP tbh, it's ugly | 12:43 | |
| * ianweller would like to do away with any extensions we don't actually need (i.e., HNP) ;) | 12:44 | |
| G | it's an ugly solution to do something that mediawiki isn't designed for | 12:44 |
| G | quaid: just sent you a /notice, don't know if you'll be able to read it, but if you can it's a list of the current ACLs | 12:45 |
| G | ohhh forgot Licensing too, thats a big chunk | 12:46 |
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| quaid | yeah, a few Foo/ exceptions is OK | 12:47 |
| ianweller | with the mention that they shouldn't be exceptions, imho. | 12:48 |
| quaid | mainly what I want is the general, open, edit-me content for contributors and users is a flat namespace, easy to know what to name, lots of categories | 12:48 |
| quaid | oh, yeah! | 12:48 |
| quaid | how about we create a bunch of stub category pages? | 12:48 |
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| quaid | Category:Bug_Triage for example | 12:48 |
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| ianweller | so, Category:Bug_triaging_stubs? | 12:48 |
| quaid | i.e., at least one for each ProjectName/ we are replacing with the renaming | 12:48 |
| quaid | and advertise that as the category to use instead of the old SubPage/Style | 12:49 |
| G | quaid: in some cases they already have a similar category, it'd be best to send wikibot over them - like I did for the Docs pages and rename them | 12:49 |
| ianweller | i'm not sure if this is relevant right now but how nim-nim has been doing things for fonts is that he's been using the Category: page as the main page for his SIG | 12:49 |
| quaid | G: right, let's do all that | 12:49 |
| * quaid adds that to the wiki gardening tasks | 12:49 | |
| ianweller | which i recommend against using Category:s as starting points. | 12:50 |
| G | ianweller: that imo isn't using the category page for what it's designed to do | 12:50 |
| ianweller | G: yeah | 12:50 |
| quaid | hmm | 12:51 |
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| quaid | makes it easy, though :) | 12:51 |
| ianweller | it does, but it's not what we want, i think. | 12:52 |
| ianweller | some projects will want to do that, most won't | 12:52 |
| ianweller | and we need to standardize it | 12:52 |
| quaid | we can recommend against it? or make a rule, not sure | 12:52 |
| * ianweller would make it a strong recommendation against. | 12:52 | |
| ianweller | if not a rule | 12:52 |
| ianweller | i'd say that's up to you guys to decide | 12:53 |
| quaid | ok, so ... | 12:53 |
| G | agreed, | 12:53 |
| quaid | I think we've covered the top item on the agenda | 12:53 |
| ianweller | in a record time of 53 minutes! :=o | 12:53 |
| ianweller | :-o* | 12:53 |
| ianweller | ;) | 12:54 |
| ianweller | is someone logging/noting what we decided? | 12:54 |
| quaid | ianweller: I like the idea of using the MW style guide as a basis, then noting the variations | 12:54 |
| quaid | similar to what we do with GNOME Docs style guide, etc. | 12:54 |
| quaid | ianweller: I'll take the summary task today :) | 12:54 |
| stickster | heh | 12:54 |
| ianweller | excellent | 12:54 |
| stickster | quaid: Thanks | 12:54 |
| ianweller | imho, people should be familiar with the wikipedia page naming guidelines *first* and then read our specifications | 12:54 |
| ianweller | or, we can take wikipedia's and adapt them appropriately | 12:55 |
| ianweller | quaid: iirc the next item on the agenda was namespace:s? or did we kinda sorta cover that | 12:56 |
| * ianweller was thinking maybe we should decide what should be the initial namespaces | 12:56 | |
| quaid | ianweller: yeah, we jumped over that, sorry | 12:56 |
| quaid | but I think we can decide that | 12:56 |
| ianweller | heh | 12:56 |
| * ianweller notes that Features: would be an important one | 12:56 | |
| quaid | hmmm | 12:56 |
| quaid | I wonder if we have a bigger discussion here?> | 12:56 |
| ianweller | we kinda do. | 12:56 |
| quaid | should we worry about a proliferation of namespaces? | 12:56 |
| ianweller | i think we should only approve namespaces if the content will not be considered documenation for end users or contributors | 12:57 |
| G | quaid: It could potentially get too big | 12:57 |
| ianweller | but otherwise, we need a hard rule one way or the other | 12:57 |
| quaid | ianweller: yeah, that was my thinking in general | 12:57 |
| G | ianweller: in that case feature pages fit into that rule | 12:57 |
| ianweller | G: yes, they do | 12:57 |
| ianweller | but, then so do theme proposals from the artwork team. | 12:58 |
| quaid | so, no Features: namespace? | 12:58 |
| G | err I mean, they fit into "documentation for end users or contributors" | 12:58 |
| quaid | G: +1 | 12:58 |
| ianweller | how do they do that? i see them more as FESCo organization in my mind | 12:58 |
| quaid | contributors work on them | 12:58 |
| quaid | marketers use them to write from | 12:59 |
| quaid | people read them to know what is coming | 12:59 |
| quaid | etc. | 12:59 |
| G | exactly | 12:59 |
| ianweller | so we're going to just use the concept of putting 'feature' somewhere in the title and categorizing it appropriately as it is now? | 12:59 |
| ianweller | like "Better webcam support feature for F10" | 13:00 |
| ianweller | maybe even s/feature // | 13:00 |
| G | well thats the way the rest of the policy is going, so yes | 13:00 |
| ianweller | ok. | 13:00 |
| quaid | ianweller: John maintains a set of categories | 13:00 |
| ianweller | quaid: i know | 13:00 |
| quaid | that is where to find the list ultimately, not by name | 13:00 |
| ianweller | Category:FeatureF10Proposed or something like that | 13:00 |
| -!- abadger1999 [n=abadger1@136.245.7.181] has joined #fedora-meeting | 13:00 | |
| quaid | we're out of time | 13:00 |
| ianweller | ack | 13:01 |
| G | quaid: so do you want me to add the Meeting: namespace now? | 13:01 |
| quaid | namespaces discussion -- to the list! | 13:01 |
| ianweller | right-o. | 13:01 |
| jsmith | +1 | 13:01 |
| ianweller | who should turn Help:Wiki organization (or whatever it was, i don't remember) into a policy? | 13:01 |
| quaid | G: I'll reply to you on list giving people One Last Chance to argue, then we'll do it, sound OK? | 13:01 |
| * ianweller could, unless someone else wants to | 13:01 | |
| quaid | the last item | 13:01 |
| G | quaid: good idea | 13:01 |
| quaid | that we need to make up a skeleton release announcement | 13:01 |
| quaid | anyone here interested in that task? or push request to the list? | 13:02 |
| ianweller | what do you mean | 13:02 |
| ianweller | "skeleton release announcement" | 13:02 |
| quaid | sorry, for Alpha | 13:02 |
| ianweller | oh ok. | 13:02 |
| quaid | request from releng, basically | 13:02 |
| quaid | I'll own that for now, see if I can find another doer :) | 13:02 |
| quaid | all right, closing and getting out of the channel's way | 13:03 |
| ianweller | ok someone's waiting for us to finish so /me moves to end meeting | 13:03 |
| ianweller | yeah. | 13:03 |
| quaid | </meeting> | 13:03 |
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