From Fedora Project Wiki
| quaid | <meeting id="Docs"> | 11:02 |
|---|---|---|
| -!- chitlesh_ is now known as ChitleshGoorah | 11:02 | |
| -!- quaid changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: Docs mtg :: quick roll call and roll | 11:02 | |
| quaid | well, three is a quorum | 11:02 |
| * stickster here | 11:03 | |
| * ke4qqq is present | 11:03 | |
| stickster | quaid: Go for it | 11:03 |
| * quaid wool gathering | 11:04 | |
| stickster | haha | 11:04 |
| * stickster falling asleep. | 11:04 | |
| quaid | ok, a few final deadlines are iminent | 11:04 |
| quaid | ref. email to f-docs-l this morning | 11:04 |
| * stickster wakes up ("Wha, huh, who, eh?") | 11:04 | |
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| * stickster saw that email, just made some quick adjustments to the wiki on those repos' Trac instances | 11:05 | |
| quaid | http://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-docs-list/2008-November/msg00042.html | 11:05 |
| quaid | k | 11:05 |
| quaid | first, am I missing anything that is due? | 11:06 |
| quaid | this follows on the email to f-trans-l yesterday | 11:06 |
| quaid | http://poelstra.fedorapeople.org/schedules/f-10/f-10-docs-tasks.html | 11:06 |
| quaid | I'm most concerned about sync on the relnotes; I think I'm going to have to go over all parts of it | 11:07 |
| quaid | hoping those go quickly :) | 11:07 |
| stickster | I'm very concerned about those too :-( | 11:07 |
| quaid | the problem is ... | 11:07 |
| quaid | ideally it's a task "anyone" can do | 11:08 |
| stickster | It's just really hard thanks to the transclusions | 11:08 |
| quaid | but it's a bit messed up now and I'm not sure how that can happen without having more knowledge | 11:08 |
| stickster | quaid: I think I did everything from the top down to Live images already | 11:09 |
| stickster | And have been visiting the pages upon getting wiki commit notices, so the watches would stay current | 11:09 |
| quaid | 'did' in which sense? | 11:09 |
| * quaid is wondering if you mean carried to XML | 11:10 | |
| stickster | quaid: Sorry, 'did' == 'sync wiki content with relnotes content, making fixes in both where required' | 11:10 |
| quaid | k | 11:10 |
| stickster | s/relnotes/XML/ | 11:10 |
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| stickster | In some cases I was seeing ESL contributors making corrections that weren't... well, correct | 11:10 |
| quaid | right | 11:11 |
| ke4qqq | hmmmm wonder if I am one of those contributors :) | 11:11 |
| stickster | I tried to capture the sense of the change if there was something to be gained | 11:11 |
| quaid | ok | 11:11 |
| stickster | ke4qqq: No, Southerners don't count as ESL in my book :-D | 11:11 |
| quaid | our procedure calls for sync'ing changes made during the XML process back to the wiki, but that didn't happen this time; and every time I face that step, I hate it. | 11:12 |
| quaid | for next time, I'd like to reconsider that step :) | 11:12 |
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| quaid | that is, once converted, the XML becomes canonical _for_that_release_, but we still accept changes to the wiki and migrate to make it easy for people. | 11:12 |
| quaid | but they _must_ refer to the built from XML as canonical before they make changes | 11:12 |
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| ke4qqq | I agree except for accepting changes to the wiki | 11:13 |
| ke4qqq | let them file tickets in trac | 11:13 |
| ke4qqq | or edit directly in xml | 11:13 |
| * stickster tickled that ke4qqq wants to get back to the draconian thing that stickster used to advocate | 11:14 | |
| ke4qqq | you'll hate me when you get down to amateur radio and see all of the changes (in lots of incremental steps) | 11:14 |
| quaid | past experience says that reduces the # of contributions; OTOH Trac is easier to use than BZ, which was the equivalent in the past. | 11:14 |
| ke4qqq | how many people edited relnotes when you asked? | 11:14 |
| ke4qqq | and even more, how many of those are you having to revert | 11:14 |
| quaid | no real statistics, just gut feel atm. | 11:14 |
| stickster | A small handful, four to six people maybe? | 11:14 |
| stickster | Oh | 11:15 |
| stickster | never mind me | 11:15 |
| stickster | I thought you asked a different question than the one you *really* asked. | 11:15 |
| quaid | well, I'm not tracking like that, that's all :) | 11:15 |
| stickster | Well there's no two ways about it, wiki <-> XML is just frickin' painful. | 11:15 |
| ke4qqq | trac worked well for IG | 11:16 |
| ke4qqq | I think | 11:16 |
| stickster | That hasn't changed since the dawn of time. | 11:16 |
| quaid | also ... once the package is in the Preview Release, people need to file actual bug reports | 11:16 |
| stickster | quaid: What about taking all the pages once we go to PR, and moving them out of Docs/Beats and into Archive: somewhere? | 11:16 |
| quaid | we really don't want to confuse people about where to file bug reports, and I fear throwing Trac in there does that. | 11:16 |
| stickster | That would kind of force the issue, wouldn't it? | 11:16 |
| quaid | stickster: the problem there is the timing | 11:16 |
| quaid | we are getting comments from the Beta, not PR | 11:17 |
| quaid | PR happens so close to our freeze for trans that we really don't get much from the PR for the relnotes. | 11:17 |
| stickster | quaid: Now you see why we really need to be having this conversation with the lovable poelcat | 11:17 |
| stickster | ;-) | 11:17 |
| quaid | rilly? | 11:17 |
| quaid | he doesn't control that part of the schedule, though | 11:18 |
| stickster | "control," no... but "helps bring sanity to" | 11:18 |
| quaid | and it's our choice to not put out a package for the Beta | 11:18 |
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| quaid | releng sees the PR as an actual preview, near RC | 11:18 |
| quaid | where we are using it as a beta for the relnotes, in a sense | 11:19 |
| quaid | so i don't see releng giving more time in the schedule between Beta and PR parts. | 11:19 |
| quaid | otoh, we _could_ consider putting out a package for the Beta, etc. | 11:19 |
| stickster | quaid: Or simply base it on the actual development freeze date | 11:19 |
| quaid | right | 11:20 |
| stickster | which is somewhere between Beta and PR, | 11:20 |
| stickster | iirc | 11:20 |
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| quaid | ok, we have some stuff to ponder here then | 11:20 |
| quaid | for the next release, etc. | 11:20 |
| quaid | today is just the pain :) | 11:20 |
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| quaid | ACTION: Wed, Thu #fedora-docs focused on beat -> XML for relnotes | 11:21 |
| quaid | when I'm done with my expense reports, I'll start on that, and do what I can to help anyone else who wants to help. | 11:21 |
| * stickster will do what he can too | 11:22 | |
| stickster | action to progress in #fedora-docs per usual, right? | 11:22 |
| * ke4qqq will volunteer to help as he can - but doesn't know about availability ATM | 11:23 | |
| quaid | yeah, no worries on that | 11:23 |
| quaid | stickster: yep | 11:23 |
| quaid | we'll drag some others in, you'll see :) | 11:23 |
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| quaid | ke4qqq, stickster btw, in case I haven't said this clearly ... I REALLY appreciate the prodding and questioning I get from folks such as you two; I'm so mentally tied up around Docs that it's hard to see the forest and the trees; but I have a deep imperative to make this clock tick. | 11:25 |
| quaid | and that's enough mixed metaphors! | 11:25 |
| quaid | so keep up the good work, etc. | 11:25 |
| * stickster throws in the goose, the golden egg, and a frying pan for good measure | 11:25 | |
| * quaid gets that feeling in his stomach at every stupid hole in Docs he steps through all the time, and has an addictive-enabling reaction to it too often | 11:25 | |
| quaid | like ... "I should have solved this years ago when it was easy." | 11:26 |
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| quaid | ok, I think ... | 11:26 |
| quaid | we can skip the task list right now, we touched upon the important stuff. | 11:26 |
| quaid | also ... | 11:27 |
| * stickster has realized that prodding's OK as long as it's gentle and constructive | 11:27 | |
| quaid | ACTION: IG all day on #fedora-docs Thu, Fri | 11:27 |
| quaid | stickster: I like to think I trained you for FPL by having to do that to me for previous years :) | 11:27 |
| stickster | :-D | 11:27 |
| quaid | so I would *love* to talk about our web publishing future | 11:27 |
| stickster | *pffft it was often the other way | 11:27 |
| * quaid missed who put that on the agenda, but thx | 11:28 | |
| stickster | quaid: web pub <-- as if *that* wasn't apropos! | 11:28 |
| * quaid steps through another hole | 11:28 | |
| stickster | hee hee | 11:28 |
| ke4qqq | ohhh yeah aren't you supposed to have a CMS picked out :) | 11:29 |
| stickster | again with the prodding :-D | 11:29 |
| stickster | no no, kidding | 11:29 |
| * ke4qqq couldn't resist | 11:29 | |
| stickster | This is much more of a joint deal than just quaid picking something, to be sure | 11:29 |
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| quaid | yeah | 11:31 |
| quaid | but I haven't been prodding us all along on that | 11:31 |
| quaid | it really was my own fault for trying to push before release | 11:31 |
| quaid | otoh, we do have a few "quiet" weeks coming up | 11:31 |
| quaid | and Nigel has a host we can play on | 11:31 |
| stickster | quaid: Seems to me that FUDCon should be used as a "Have everything decided so we can make liftoff" date | 11:32 |
| quaid | could be | 11:32 |
| quaid | but I | 11:32 |
| quaid | 'd rather have it be | 11:32 |
| quaid | a "finish the last bits" :) | 11:32 |
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| quaid | I wonder if we can pick a tool ourselves, as-is | 11:32 |
| quaid | then go seek an implementor | 11:32 |
| quaid | put out the word, ask for someone with skills in $X | 11:32 |
| * ke4qqq would feel better if we did that with our shortlist | 11:33 | |
| quaid | hmm | 11:33 |
| quaid | yeah, that could work | 11:33 |
| quaid | build on and improve our MediaWiki migration model | 11:34 |
| ke4qqq | that way we can take into account available talent in our decision making process | 11:34 |
| * stickster notes that strategically speaking we should make sure "take into account available talent" doesn't end up meaning "stretch thin resources thinner" | 11:34 | |
| stickster | i.e. let's try to grow the number of people involved by reaching into the outside communities if possible | 11:35 |
| ke4qqq | hmmmm wonder if that's something we can recruit for | 11:35 |
| quaid | e.g. Drupal folks have responded about CMS in the past | 11:36 |
| stickster | quaid: Funny, I was thinking the same thing | 11:36 |
| * ke4qqq thinks that would be cool - add a contributor from upstream. | 11:36 | |
| stickster | And drupal is one of the few CMS' actively tracked and carried in Fedora | 11:36 |
| ke4qqq | and it would give us ven more of a in if we need upstream to add features/fix bugs | 11:37 |
| ke4qqq | s/ven/even | 11:37 |
| stickster | but... | 11:37 |
| stickster | http://extensions.joomla.org/component/option,com_mtree/task,viewlink/link_id,534/Itemid,35/ | 11:37 |
| ke4qqq | would you really use a wysiwyg? | 11:39 |
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| stickster | ke4qqq: It should be extensible to do wysiwyg or $EDITOR, if not handled already | 11:40 |
| quaid | http://drupal.org/project/Modules | 11:41 |
| quaid | how about this ... | 11:41 |
| * quaid starts doing numbering, ready? | 11:42 | |
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| stickster | quaid: Yeah, looks like they have an export function (HTML => DocBook XML, i.e.lossy) | 11:42 |
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| quaid | 1. We make a big public splash that we are hunting hard | 11:42 |
| quaid | 2. Talk lots on f-docs-l for a week and pick a shortlist | 11:42 |
| quaid | 3. announce that shortlist and that we are actively trying things out; put up test instances, give test drives | 11:42 |
| quaid | 4. Amongst that, we mention again that we need actual talent to deliver the solution within Fedora, and invite those folks to join the discussion and help us with the decision process. | 11:43 |
| quaid | 5. Ideally we get both a decision and a doer at the same time | 11:43 |
| quaid | 6. Optionally we discover we aren't going to get it that easy, but we do get a shortlist or a single choice; then we can decide if we want to troll with the shortlist. | 11:43 |
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| * quaid means 'troll' in the fishin' sense :) | 11:44 | |
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| * stickster down with that | 11:44 | |
| * ke4qqq likes that plan | 11:44 | |
| * stickster notes that he was just at Ontario LF and Joomla! was there. :-( Would have been a good opportunity to chat if not for timing | 11:44 | |
| stickster | ah well, email works regardless ;-) | 11:44 |
| quaid | so we sort-of get what ke4qqq suggested, with enough looseness to not thin out resources, and enough talk to attract from those outside commnities. | 11:44 |
| quaid | stickster: right, and we can do some reach out to people stuff; I may have met their mentor, for example. | 11:45 |
| ke4qqq | joomla isn't available in fedora is it? so it'd have to get packaged? | 11:45 |
| * quaid notes that Drupal GSoC mentors included a 16 year old and a 13 year old, who otherwise was not qualified for GSoC or GHOP | 11:45 | |
| quaid | ke4qqq: that becomes part of the requirement; the task doer might need to become the packager. | 11:46 |
| quaid | but if some of these projects might be willing to help for the increased usage, awareness, and press-splashiness of "Fedora Documentation chooses $FOO!" | 11:46 |
| stickster | ke4qqq: Yes, would have to be packaged. | 11:46 |
| quaid | and in that case, packaging behooves them even more. | 11:46 |
| * quaid wonders wtf Joomla isn't packaged for Fedora | 11:47 | |
| stickster | Not sure | 11:47 |
| stickster | But it's gotta be license compliant | 11:48 |
| quaid | yeah, I've seen them at places but never asked. | 11:48 |
| * stickster will check it out | 11:48 | |
| quaid | ok, so that's a plan, too | 11:49 |
| quaid | anything else on this topic or ... ready to move on or close? | 11:49 |
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| stickster | Oh, look who finally decides to join the party! | 11:49 |
| * jsmith is terribly late... got caught up in other meetings | 11:49 | |
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| * stickster kids, he kids | 11:49 | |
| * ke4qqq would love to see alfresco in the running and manage to get packaged at the same time - but don't know that it's a fit | 11:50 | |
| jsmith | Yup... sorry guys. | 11:50 |
| jsmith | ke4qqq: Even better... there's a plugin for Alfresco designed for Docbook | 11:50 |
| * jsmith can't remember the name... starts with a C | 11:50 | |
| stickster | Cabinet of Dr. Caligari? | 11:50 |
| stickster | Cabernet? | 11:51 |
| * ke4qqq REALLY likes Alfresco - but again don't know that it's a fit for us | 11:51 | |
| quaid | ke4qqq: Alfresco themselves are supposed to be working on packaging, but I haven't heard from Lee in a while. | 11:51 |
| stickster | Yeah, too quiet on that front to be hopeful just yet | 11:51 |
| jsmith | Componize! | 11:51 |
| jsmith | That's what it's called | 11:52 |
| stickster | Voltron! | 11:52 |
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| stickster | quaid: nothing more from here | 11:53 |
| quaid | same here | 11:53 |
| quaid | closing in 10 | 11:53 |
| quaid | 5 | 11:54 |
| quaid | 4 | 11:54 |
| quaid | 3 | 11:54 |
| quaid | 2 | 11:54 |
| quaid | 1 | 11:54 |
| quaid | </meeting> | 11:54 |
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