From Fedora Project Wiki
| Sparks | Roll Call! | Mar 25 20:00 |
|---|---|---|
| *Sparks has changed the topic to: Welcome to the Docs Project Meeting - Agenda: DocsProject/SteeringCommittee/Meetings | Mar 25 20:00 | |
| *Sparks is here | Mar 25 20:00 | |
| *jjmcd yo | Mar 25 20:00 | |
| *n9986_ (n=nandeep@59.176.80.223) has joined #fedora-meeting | Mar 25 20:00 | |
| Sparks | Where is everyone? | Mar 25 20:02 |
| *glezos is here | Mar 25 20:02 | |
| glezos | afk, but pingable | Mar 25 20:03 |
| *laubersm is here | Mar 25 20:03 | |
| **** BEGIN LOGGING AT Wed Mar 25 20:07:20 2009 | ||
| *Now talking on #fedora-meeting | Mar 25 20:07 | |
| *Topic for #fedora-meeting is: Welcome to the Docs Project Meeting - Agenda: DocsProject/SteeringCommittee/Meetings | Mar 25 20:07 | |
| *Topic for #fedora-meeting set by Sparks at Wed Mar 25 19:59:50 2009 | Mar 25 20:07 | |
| ke4qqq | which one?? I only see beta release notes | Mar 25 20:07 |
| ke4qqq | and f10 admin something | Mar 25 20:07 |
| Sparks | Sorry about that, my computer went stupid. | Mar 25 20:07 |
| Sparks | Let's start over again... :) | Mar 25 20:08 |
| Sparks | Roll call! | Mar 25 20:08 |
| *Sparks is here (I think) | Mar 25 20:08 | |
| *ke4qqq is here | Mar 25 20:08 | |
| *jjmcd qrv | Mar 25 20:09 | |
| *laubersm is here | Mar 25 20:09 | |
| *stickster_afk is now known as stickster | Mar 25 20:09 | |
| *Sparks has changed the topic to: Docs Project - Beta Announcement | Mar 25 20:09 | |
| *ianweller rolls in | Mar 25 20:10 | |
| Sparks | Okay, there was a fairly good discussion on f-docs-l about how to author the Beta Announcement... | Mar 25 20:10 |
| Sparks | and what should be in it... | Mar 25 20:10 |
| Sparks | and how much detail to put into it... | Mar 25 20:10 |
| *mdomsch (n=mdomsch@cpe-70-124-62-55.austin.res.rr.com) has joined #fedora-meeting | Mar 25 20:10 | |
| Sparks | and who are target audience is. | Mar 25 20:10 |
| *ryanlerch (n=rlerch@nat/redhat/x-9e2fb1f14674b40d) has joined #fedora-meeting | Mar 25 20:10 | |
| Sparks | Let's see if we can get those questions answered. | Mar 25 20:11 |
| *stickster shows up late -- sorry | Mar 25 20:11 | |
| Sparks | Does anyone have any concerns about how the Beta Announcement looks right now in Gobby (or on the wiki)? | Mar 25 20:11 |
| Sparks | F11_Beta_Announcement | Mar 25 20:12 |
| jjmcd | last week we talked about three groups of no more than five bullets I see we have added some, I don't have a problem with that but are we all agreeing that more bullets is ok? | Mar 25 20:12 |
| laubersm | I like it - though with the way the other discussions are going I wonder about making the link to the Beta Release Notes more prominent | Mar 25 20:12 |
| *ianweller takes a peek | Mar 25 20:12 | |
| stickster | The audience for the announcement falls into a couple groups | Mar 25 20:13 |
| stickster | 1. community members and users, i.e. most likely testers | Mar 25 20:13 |
| stickster | 2. journalists and web aggies | Mar 25 20:13 |
| *Sparks notes stickster has made a change in Gobby... | Mar 25 20:13 | |
| *stickster changed the kimono thing, which always sounded silly-naughty as opposed to the more neutral car talk version | Mar 25 20:14 | |
| jjmcd | Kinda borrowed that from Icom's IC7800 announcement | Mar 25 20:14 |
| Sparks | jjmcd: I don't like being held to an arbitrary standard (three groups of five bullets). | Mar 25 20:14 |
| Sparks | jjmcd: If we have more to say or less to say then we should just say what we need to say. | Mar 25 20:15 |
| ke4qqq | the gcc line doesn't make sense to me. | Mar 25 20:15 |
| jjmcd | Yeah, well, that wasn't my recommendation, but I didn't want others to think it was too gangly | Mar 25 20:15 |
| Sparks | ke4qqq: good catch | Mar 25 20:15 |
| ke4qqq | there is at least a period missing | Mar 25 20:16 |
| jjmcd | Well, that needs more prominence. C++ code is affected by the change | Mar 25 20:16 |
| jjmcd | Some existing code will break | Mar 25 20:16 |
| stickster | I just sent a bunch of stuff to the wrong channel... I'm such a dweeb. | Mar 25 20:17 |
| *stickster transcribes | Mar 25 20:17 | |
| stickster | One other thing that I am still on the fence about is the call-out of the Linux Format cover blurb. | Mar 25 20:17 |
| stickster | The whole blurb, for those who haven't seen it, was "Fedora 10 kicks Ubuntu's ass." | Mar 25 20:17 |
| stickster | Whether or not you tend to agree, I think calling that particular blurb out is skirting a troubled line. | Mar 25 20:17 |
| stickster | We don't need to make someone else look worse for us to look good, I think. | Mar 25 20:17 |
| jjmcd | We took out Ubuntu | Mar 25 20:17 |
| ke4qqq | so utilizes doesn't carry the notion that it's been upgraded. | Mar 25 20:17 |
| jjmcd | replaced it with ... | Mar 25 20:17 |
| ke4qqq | stickster: +1 we don't care about Ubuntu | Mar 25 20:18 |
| stickster | jjmcd: I realize that, but it's not going to be hard for people to trace the quote and then take that as us having a chip on our shoulder. | Mar 25 20:18 |
| ke4qqq | and certainly don't want to call attentiont to them in our own release announcement. | Mar 25 20:18 |
| jjmcd | Ahhh, yeah, prolly right. | Mar 25 20:18 |
| stickster | From a marketing perspective, that's a total party foul. | Mar 25 20:18 |
| jjmcd | would anyone bother? | Mar 25 20:19 |
| quaid | yep | Mar 25 20:19 |
| *stickster doesn't want to test those waters. | Mar 25 20:19 | |
| ianweller | should we be using https for wiki urls? | Mar 25 20:19 |
| jjmcd | Yeah, I see that | Mar 25 20:19 |
| quaid | ianweller: I thought not? | Mar 25 20:19 |
| jjmcd | ianweller I thought I caught those | Mar 25 20:19 |
| quaid | or you mean to get the 'latest' without caching | Mar 25 20:19 |
| ianweller | well it bothers people who are logged in but i guess if we're caching, then don't | Mar 25 20:20 |
| stickster | Do people without a login get an annoying credentials input box if they use https://? | Mar 25 20:20 |
| ke4qqq | no | Mar 25 20:20 |
| jjmcd | No, I don't thnk so | Mar 25 20:20 |
| ke4qqq | they just have to do the entire session thing | Mar 25 20:20 |
| ke4qqq | with ssl | Mar 25 20:20 |
| Sparks | and that's bad? | Mar 25 20:20 |
| ke4qqq | which is more expensive for our infrastructure | Mar 25 20:20 |
| stickster | Oh, that's no fun then. | Mar 25 20:20 |
| ke4qqq | computationally | Mar 25 20:20 |
| quaid | and we don't get the ncaching benefit | Mar 25 20:20 |
| ke4qqq | right | Mar 25 20:20 |
| stickster | Yeah, use http:// unless it's going to an audience you know is entirely (or almost entirely) credentialed | Mar 25 20:21 |
| ke4qqq | that too | Mar 25 20:21 |
| Sparks | +1 | Mar 25 20:21 |
| stickster | One other issue that was raised by someone in Marketing -- apparently "Is a better OS than Fedora 10 even possible?" comes off as a very offensive statement in at least one other language | Mar 25 20:22 |
| ke4qqq | I just pulled the kicks ass sentence out. flame me if you wish | Mar 25 20:22 |
| quaid | stickster: huh, really? | Mar 25 20:22 |
| Sparks | stickster: Really? I wonder what it translates to. | Mar 25 20:22 |
| ke4qqq | stickster: I gotta admit if we aren't transliterating what is the evil inference? | Mar 25 20:23 |
| ke4qqq | s/admit/ask | Mar 25 20:23 |
| stickster | I think it's an idiomatic or cultural thing, as opposed to "when you translate this, it says 'I would like to date your teenage daughter.'" | Mar 25 20:23 |
| stickster | What if we restated that in some way? | Mar 25 20:23 |
| ke4qqq | How about - While a better OS is hard to imagine - Fp.o has made the beta of Fedora 11 for you to realize how good it is now | Mar 25 20:24 |
| Sparks | Can you get any better than Fedora 10? | Mar 25 20:24 |
| stickster | Like, "Users, sysadmins, and press agree -- Fedora 10 outdid itself in terms of <blah, blah, blah>" | Mar 25 20:24 |
| ke4qqq | or something along those lines | Mar 25 20:24 |
| stickster | Sparks: We'd better hope so | Mar 25 20:24 |
| stickster | Oh, that was a suggestion, oops :-D | Mar 25 20:24 |
| Sparks | stickster: Gees | Mar 25 20:24 |
| *radsy (n=scott@124-171-172-73.dyn.iinet.net.au) has joined #fedora-meeting | Mar 25 20:25 | |
| Sparks | Ummm... Do we even have "JUICY QUOTE 1"? | Mar 25 20:25 |
| ke4qqq | Sparks: we at least have Fedora 10 kicks ubuntus ass | Mar 25 20:25 |
| quaid | +1 to reference the agreed sources that Fedora 10 rox'd | Mar 25 20:25 |
| stickster | Sparks: Shouldn't be hard to find | Mar 25 20:26 |
| stickster | We got great press coverage. | Mar 25 20:26 |
| stickster | ke4qqq: :-D | Mar 25 20:26 |
| Sparks | :) | Mar 25 20:26 |
| laubersm | arg - give him a minute - he'll find one. :) | Mar 25 20:26 |
| Sparks | laubersm: nice type on top of the page... :) | Mar 25 20:26 |
| laubersm | did I get it all back out correctly? | Mar 25 20:27 |
| *mdomsch has quit ("Leaving") | Mar 25 20:27 | |
| *laubersm has too many things and windows going on | Mar 25 20:27 | |
| *Pikachu_2014 has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)) | Mar 25 20:27 | |
| stickster | I'm looking up some press now, sorry, FF is slow | Mar 25 20:27 |
| Sparks | laubersm: yeah... | Mar 25 20:27 |
| stickster | by which I mean "Not instantaneously mind melding." | Mar 25 20:27 |
| ke4qqq | cause of course you are using minefield in rawhide :) | Mar 25 20:28 |
| Sparks | Is the bugzilla link supposed to be https://? | Mar 25 20:28 |
| ianweller | Sparks: yes | Mar 25 20:28 |
| Sparks | ianweller: TU | Mar 25 20:28 |
| ianweller | it doesn't accept http:// connections and redirects to https anyway | Mar 25 20:28 |
| ke4qqq | yeah http redirects to https | Mar 25 20:28 |
| Sparks | laubersm: Don't like contractions? | Mar 25 20:29 |
| quaid | nope | Mar 25 20:29 |
| laubersm | nope | Mar 25 20:29 |
| Sparks | sound clunky to my southern ear | Mar 25 20:29 |
| ke4qqq | mine too | Mar 25 20:29 |
| laubersm | they also do not always translate well - even if most translators know how to deal with them | Mar 25 20:29 |
| ke4qqq | true | Mar 25 20:30 |
| quaid | http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Docs_Project_Style_Guide_-_General_Guidelines#Contractions | Mar 25 20:30 |
| laubersm | that too | Mar 25 20:30 |
| Sparks | quaid: Oh we can change that... it's in the wiki... | Mar 25 20:30 |
| ke4qqq | P in project is capitalized right? | Mar 25 20:30 |
| quaid | yes | Mar 25 20:31 |
| quaid | the formal project name | Mar 25 20:31 |
| ke4qqq | just making sure I wasn't crazy | Mar 25 20:31 |
| quaid | for those curious about various comments here | Mar 25 20:31 |
| quaid | we are writing together via gobby | Mar 25 20:31 |
| Sparks | ke4qqq: That top part is commented out. Should we use some of that or just open up the document with "The wait is over." | Mar 25 20:32 |
| Sparks | ?\ | Mar 25 20:32 |
| ke4qqq | why is Gnome 2.26 and kde 4.2 not on their own line | Mar 25 20:32 |
| quaid | ke4qqq: contraction :) | Mar 25 20:32 |
| Sparks | ke4qqq: Because we were trying to conform | Mar 25 20:32 |
| laubersm | ke4qqq, we condensed to a single bullet of updated desktops... | Mar 25 20:32 |
| ke4qqq | combining them makes it seem like an insignificant update | Mar 25 20:32 |
| quaid | G then K is alpha | Mar 25 20:32 |
| Sparks | Personally, I think they are big ticket items and could be separated if we have enough "stuff" to put behind them | Mar 25 20:32 |
| quaid | isn't 4.2 in F10 | Mar 25 20:33 |
| quaid | ? | Mar 25 20:33 |
| ke4qqq | yes, but is debuting in F11 | Mar 25 20:33 |
| ke4qqq | iirc | Mar 25 20:33 |
| jjmcd | I think it was in the talking points | Mar 25 20:34 |
| quaid | honey, she can't re-debut | Mar 25 20:34 |
| quaid | :) | Mar 25 20:34 |
| ke4qqq | sure - just like xfs support :) | Mar 25 20:34 |
| laubersm | Sparks, How much "stuff" do you want in the *announce* page? | Mar 25 20:34 |
| laubersm | that is the question that keeps comin round | Mar 25 20:34 |
| Sparks | Just enough to reel them in. | Mar 25 20:35 |
| jjmcd | Exactly - I would argue the gnome and kde updates ARE minor | Mar 25 20:35 |
| Sparks | You don't want to say you have a car for sale | Mar 25 20:35 |
| Sparks | You want to say you have a fast, red car for sale | Mar 25 20:35 |
| jjmcd | Hey - you ain't selling my car! | Mar 25 20:35 |
| Sparks | jjmcd: too late | Mar 25 20:35 |
| ke4qqq | so since press is one of our target demographics - I think a column listing 'importnant' stuff is important, if they have to read the details it may not get covered. | Mar 25 20:36 |
| quaid | can't we link them to longer info? | Mar 25 20:36 |
| jjmcd | We do | Mar 25 20:36 |
| jjmcd | We link to the beta rn's and also to the beats | Mar 25 20:36 |
| quaid | then lots of shortness is better than fewer longer bits | Mar 25 20:36 |
| laubersm | anyone who is looking for it will find it with a single bullet saying that all the desktops have been updated to the latest version and | Mar 25 20:36 |
| Sparks | Yeah to the release notes | Mar 25 20:36 |
| laubersm | those that don't know they need it won't care that it is not separate bullets | Mar 25 20:36 |
| Sparks | Then you have a grocery list | Mar 25 20:36 |
| laubersm | The RN then has all the details in their own sections | Mar 25 20:37 |
| quaid | Sparks: with adjectives | Mar 25 20:37 |
| jjmcd | We also have a link to the feature list | Mar 25 20:37 |
| quaid | Fantastic new sparkling beans in a can! | Mar 25 20:37 |
| quaid | v . | Mar 25 20:37 |
| quaid | beans | Mar 25 20:37 |
| ke4qqq | latest vintage sparkling beans in a can :) | Mar 25 20:37 |
| Sparks | yikes | Mar 25 20:37 |
| Sparks | no more beans! :) | Mar 25 20:37 |
| jjmcd | And you don't learn that you need a fancy new $1000 can opener until you get to the beats | Mar 25 20:37 |
| laubersm | and btw - the feature list needs some love too - there was a request to f-d-l a while back to wordsmith it and I have done some but it needs much more... | Mar 25 20:38 |
| Sparks | The desktop statement just sounds bland to me | Mar 25 20:38 |
| jjmcd | It kind of is ... there are no really cool user features | Mar 25 20:38 |
| Sparks | Didn't they do anything to spice up the desktop? | Mar 25 20:38 |
| ke4qqq | they moved to kde 4.2 and gnome 2.26 | Mar 25 20:39 |
| *Pikachu_2014 (n=Pikachu_@81-66-20-24.rev.numericable.fr) has joined #fedora-meeting | Mar 25 20:39 | |
| Sparks | so they just changed the number? | Mar 25 20:39 |
| laubersm | and fixed the bugs | Mar 25 20:39 |
| laubersm | they changed how sound works in gnome | Mar 25 20:39 |
| laubersm | and broke it elsewhere | Mar 25 20:39 |
| jjmcd | I think there were some enablers there, too, but nothing earth shattering | Mar 25 20:39 |
| *zwu|gone is now known as zwu | Mar 25 20:39 | |
| ke4qqq | 20 second startup? | Mar 25 20:40 |
| *laubersm is kidding | Mar 25 20:40 | |
| ke4qqq | Auto Bug Reporting Tool? | Mar 25 20:40 |
| Sparks | Gnome 2.26 has been updated to include new sound controls, a faster startup, and an ATM that will funnel money directly into your pocket | Mar 25 20:40 |
| ke4qqq | tbird3 | Mar 25 20:41 |
| ke4qqq | delta rpms? preso | Mar 25 20:41 |
| ke4qqq | presto | Mar 25 20:41 |
| *joat (n=joat@ip70-174-79-200.hr.hr.cox.net) has joined #Fedora-Meeting | Mar 25 20:41 | |
| ke4qqq | ohhhh the big one | Mar 25 20:41 |
| laubersm | ke4qqq, are you suggesting we replace some of the existing bullets with these other choices? | Mar 25 20:41 |
| ke4qqq | OPENCHANGE | Mar 25 20:41 |
| ke4qqq | I am answering Sparks question | Mar 25 20:42 |
| *laubersm looks back.... | Mar 25 20:42 | |
| Sparks | ke4qqq: What was my question?!? | Mar 25 20:42 |
| Sparks | Oh | Mar 25 20:42 |
| Sparks | Bah | Mar 25 20:42 |
| laubersm | ahh | Mar 25 20:42 |
| ke4qqq | 20:38 < Sparks> Didn't they do anything to spice up the desktop? | Mar 25 20:42 |
| ke4qqq | but we HAVE to cover openchange | Mar 25 20:42 |
| ke4qqq | that's HUGE | Mar 25 20:42 |
| ke4qqq | first distro to have it | Mar 25 20:43 |
| laubersm | ke4qqq, but those are not parts of the desktop envirment themselves... they are separate apps | Mar 25 20:43 |
| stickster | We don't need to cover every single change in the Beta announcement | Mar 25 20:43 |
| Sparks | Openchange? | Mar 25 20:43 |
| ke4qqq | native mapi library for linux | Mar 25 20:43 |
| ke4qqq | corporate drones like me rejoice | Mar 25 20:43 |
| laubersm | wow!!! | Mar 25 20:43 |
| Sparks | :) | Mar 25 20:43 |
| laubersm | what's that mean? | Mar 25 20:43 |
| ke4qqq | native exchange access for evolution and kdepim | Mar 25 20:43 |
| laubersm | ick | Mar 25 20:44 |
| Sparks | Are we really going to say "Microsoft" in our announcement? | Mar 25 20:44 |
| jjmcd | Not nearly as HUGE as qtel | Mar 25 20:44 |
| Sparks | That's just bad juju right there | Mar 25 20:44 |
| laubersm | but I can see why corp drones rejoice | Mar 25 20:44 |
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| ke4qqq | perhaps my perspective is skewed on that point | Mar 25 20:44 |
| ke4qqq | I'll defer to the wisdom of others | Mar 25 20:45 |
| quaid | Sparks: it's a trademark | Mar 25 20:45 |
| ke4qqq | though I think it's huge. | Mar 25 20:45 |
| ke4qqq | jjmcd: what's qtel? | Mar 25 20:45 |
| quaid | it's just habit to use trademarks of other people correctly, it's respectful | Mar 25 20:45 |
| jjmcd | echolink client - huge to a different audience | Mar 25 20:45 |
| laubersm | we are already saying Microsoft - with the cross compiler. | Mar 25 20:45 |
| stickster | We can get away with just the first one, though, which is also standard | Mar 25 20:45 |
| quaid | Sparks: also, I don't like to concede the generic word 'windows' to MSFT | Mar 25 20:45 |
| Sparks | Yeah... but it points out that there are other OSs to deal with. We shouldn't be point out anyone else's OS... IMO | Mar 25 20:46 |
| stickster | quaid: The problem is, now it reads like it's a Microsoft product we're including. | Mar 25 20:46 |
| quaid | stickster: not really iirc aiui | Mar 25 20:46 |
| quaid | ok then reword it | Mar 25 20:46 |
| Sparks | stickster: yeah | Mar 25 20:46 |
| quaid | how about | Mar 25 20:46 |
| stickster | dammit, that's not right either | Mar 25 20:46 |
| stickster | There you go | Mar 25 20:46 |
| quaid | not MS | Mar 25 20:47 |
| Sparks | Cross compiler for that "OtherOS" | Mar 25 20:47 |
| quaid | heh | Mar 25 20:47 |
| Sparks | ") | Mar 25 20:47 |
| Sparks | :) | Mar 25 20:47 |
| jjmcd | "Windows from that evil empire in Washington"? | Mar 25 20:47 |
| *G_work_ is now known as G_work | Mar 25 20:47 | |
| *laubersm seems to remember that same issue/discussion when that item reached feature review as well.... | Mar 25 20:48 | |
| *ke4qqq notes we are 47 minutes into the meeting. | Mar 25 20:48 | |
| *EvilBob (n=EvilBob@fedora/bobjensen) has joined #Fedora-Meeting | Mar 25 20:48 | |
| quaid | who summoned EvilBob ?!?! | Mar 25 20:49 |
| jjmcd | But we have made huge improvements in the announcement | Mar 25 20:49 |
| Sparks | ke4qqq: We are going over tonight | Mar 25 20:49 |
| quaid | ok, working meeting is tough | Mar 25 20:49 |
| quaid | Sparks: do you want to cover anything else within the hour | Mar 25 20:49 |
| ke4qqq | I am not objecting - just keeping us mindful | Mar 25 20:49 |
| stickster | Is there not Publican stuff on the agenda? | Mar 25 20:49 |
| ke4qqq | of the time | Mar 25 20:49 |
| quaid | just in case ppl have to go? | Mar 25 20:49 |
| Sparks | Yeah, does anyone need to bail at the top of the hour? | Mar 25 20:49 |
| quaid | we could take apause on the announcement | Mar 25 20:49 |
| stickster | Sparks: Unfortch, I do | Mar 25 20:50 |
| quaid | I just read it top to bottom and did a few edits, it's quite there | Mar 25 20:50 |
| Sparks | bah | Mar 25 20:50 |
| Sparks | Okay... | Mar 25 20:50 |
| *Sparks has changed the topic to: Docs Project - Publican Discussion | Mar 25 20:50 | |
| Sparks | We'll jump back on the announcement in a few... | Mar 25 20:50 |
| Sparks | So there is a problem. | Mar 25 20:50 |
| jjmcd | multiples, actually | Mar 25 20:50 |
| Sparks | We've been trying to shoehorn Publican into Fedora for the past three releases... | Mar 25 20:50 |
| Sparks | and I know that I've gone rounds with Publican trying to get it to meet my needs... | Mar 25 20:51 |
| stickster | Er, two, right? | Mar 25 20:51 |
| Sparks | with some success. | Mar 25 20:51 |
| stickster | Anyway, it's been a while coming. | Mar 25 20:51 |
| Sparks | I'm going to count three problems... | Mar 25 20:51 |
| Sparks | 1) The naming schema does not match Fedora naming schema. | Mar 25 20:51 |
| Sparks | 2) The Translators don't get statistics from Publican packages. | Mar 25 20:52 |
| Sparks | 3) Support is lacking for changes that need to be made for Fedora. | Mar 25 20:52 |
| ke4qqq | ? | Mar 25 20:52 |
| quaid | on #2, stats are available via CLI tools only, which breaks team workflow | Mar 25 20:52 |
| Sparks | quaid: Thanks | Mar 25 20:52 |
| quaid | on #1, this is packaging naming in specific | Mar 25 20:53 |
| Sparks | right | Mar 25 20:53 |
| jjmcd | It also looks as if the structure of the various langs produced by Publican is different and something else we may need to deal with | Mar 25 20:53 |
| quaid | ke4qqq: go ahead | Mar 25 20:53 |
| quaid | jjmcd: good point | Mar 25 20:53 |
| quaid | previous tools put all langs in one package | Mar 25 20:53 |
| stickster | Another note on #2, Spot and I have been working on some folks internally to break loose some hours to pitch in code that lets Tx handle Publican. | Mar 25 20:53 |
| quaid | publican produces 1 package per lang | Mar 25 20:53 |
| quaid | meaning we have x*y new packages | Mar 25 20:53 |
| Sparks | and each has to be evaluated | Mar 25 20:54 |
| stickster | 1 SRPM per lang? | Mar 25 20:54 |
| ke4qqq | can you explain #3 - should I be taking that as upstream doesn't want to help us, or that they are abandoning? | Mar 25 20:54 |
| ke4qqq | stickster: what has your success level been? | Mar 25 20:54 |
| jjmcd | But if we need to hack the rpm, we *MAY* be able to fix that anyway | Mar 25 20:54 |
| stickster | ke4qqq: Hang on, let's resolve these questions first | Mar 25 20:54 |
| ke4qqq | ok | Mar 25 20:54 |
| quaid | ke4qqq: features requested have primarily been met with an answer that they are not pertinent to the Publican audience. | Mar 25 20:54 |
| stickster | quaid: Is that 1 SRPM per lang? | Mar 25 20:54 |
| Sparks | ke4qqq: I have moderate success with getting things fixed upstream but I've also been told that fixes for "silly" Fedora problems won't be fixed. | Mar 25 20:54 |
| Sparks | which is a problem | Mar 25 20:55 |
| jjmcd | stickster: yes | Mar 25 20:55 |
| quaid | ke4qqq: and either cannot be done as it is written or there are no resources to fix but a patch is welcome.\ | Mar 25 20:55 |
| stickster | Oh. Ew. | Mar 25 20:55 |
| quaid | yeah, forgot about that one | Mar 25 20:55 |
| Sparks | yeah, that one has been brewing for a while | Mar 25 20:55 |
| ke4qqq | wow - guess that's one way to get package count up | Mar 25 20:55 |
| quaid | *snort* | Mar 25 20:56 |
| stickster | That should be part of any spec file fix that we brew up, if we bother at all. | Mar 25 20:56 |
| Sparks | Does anyone have any questions about #1? | Mar 25 20:56 |
| Sparks | (I'm going to dig up an email in a sec...) | Mar 25 20:56 |
| jjmcd | does our package HAVE to be called f-r-n | Mar 25 20:56 |
| quaid | jjmcd: ask f13 | Mar 25 20:56 |
| Sparks | jjmcd: The problem stems from the product number being put into the name. | Mar 25 20:57 |
| stickster | jjmcd: It needs to carry the word "fedora-" at the front, AIUI, since it's part of the branding that would be removed in a remix. | Mar 25 20:57 |
| f13 | ... what name would you prefer? | Mar 25 20:57 |
| Sparks | It is the difference between fedora-security-guide and fedora-security-guide-10 | Mar 25 20:58 |
| jjmcd | I was wondering why not allow Publican to put the release number in the package name | Mar 25 20:58 |
| f13 | eeew | Mar 25 20:58 |
| Sparks | Well, right now you can't turn it off | Mar 25 20:58 |
| f13 | versions should never be in the name. | Mar 25 20:58 |
| Sparks | and the Security Guide is not tied directly to ANY specific release of Fedora | Mar 25 20:58 |
| jjmcd | Why not allow people to install the NEXT version of release notes to study before installing? | Mar 25 20:59 |
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| quaid | jjmcd: right, that's the use case being argued for | Mar 25 20:59 |
| stickster | jjmcd: That was kind of my question. It's actually a useful thing IMHO | Mar 25 20:59 |
| quaid | but it's a packaging committee discussion, really | Mar 25 20:59 |
| quaid | and someone has to care enough to take it there | Mar 25 20:59 |
| f13 | you can upgrade your release notes | Mar 25 20:59 |
| f13 | do you think that somebody would want to go back and read the old ones locally once that has been done? | Mar 25 21:00 |
| quaid | f13: it's for sysadmins | Mar 25 21:00 |
| f13 | (and why would they install the package when the newer release notes are available on the web?) | Mar 25 21:00 |
| quaid | to have multiple versions of one guide | Mar 25 21:00 |
| stickster | f13: And for writers. | Mar 25 21:00 |
| quaid | one per package | Mar 25 21:00 |
| laubersm | f13: yes | Mar 25 21:00 |
| ke4qqq | so do we have someone lobbying FPC for this? | Mar 25 21:00 |
| quaid | ke4qqq: not from Docs | Mar 25 21:00 |
| quaid | that I know of | Mar 25 21:00 |
| quaid | nor do I see consensus that is the way to go :L) | Mar 25 21:01 |
| Sparks | I don't have a problem having the number there but I want the option to turn it off. | Mar 25 21:01 |
| Sparks | Because I don't want it in my document. | Mar 25 21:01 |
| jjmcd | I'm not convinced it is the right answer, but I'm not convinced it isn't | Mar 25 21:01 |
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| quaid | seems a legit use case to me | Mar 25 21:02 |
| quaid | but it's freaking late to bring the case | Mar 25 21:02 |
| stickster | Sparks: So the problem here is that Publican doesn't predict any documentation that's not tied to a specific software release | Mar 25 21:02 |
| Sparks | I'd be happy to fight the battle with the FPC but Publican is broken for me | Mar 25 21:02 |
| jjmcd | Yeah, whatever we do we need to work with the tools we got | Mar 25 21:02 |
| Sparks | stickster: You cannot tell Publican to NOT use the product number. So everything HAS to be tied to a specific release. | Mar 25 21:02 |
| quaid | how much work would it be to add PDF to fedora-doc-utils and package the whole thing? | Mar 25 21:03 |
| quaid | s/add/fix/ | Mar 25 21:03 |
| Sparks | quaid: Would you like me to paste the five options? | Mar 25 21:03 |
| jjmcd | And my leaning is to continue down the Publican path, so we are at least a baby step closer come F12 time | Mar 25 21:03 |
| Sparks | jjmcd: We wouldn't be | Mar 25 21:03 |
| Sparks | Okay... earlier I posted an email to the f-docs-l... | Mar 25 21:04 |
| stickster | I would like to try my hand at fixing this problem, but it's hours that I don't tend to have anymore :-( | Mar 25 21:04 |
| Sparks | that had five options for moving forward because I don't tread water that well... | Mar 25 21:04 |
| quaid | jjmcd: someone from the wide community needs to be a Publican contributor, work on Fedora Docs needs, and maybe take over the package. | Mar 25 21:04 |
| Sparks | 1. Use Publican for a guide but munge through to an RPM that Fedora will | Mar 25 21:04 |
| Sparks | consume; use jjmcd's script or a new .spec file | Mar 25 21:04 |
| Sparks | 2. Fork Publican and remove the variable that puts the version # in the | Mar 25 21:04 |
| Sparks | name | Mar 25 21:04 |
| Sparks | 3. Get the Packaging Committee to amend the rules | Mar 25 21:04 |
| Sparks | 4. Use Publican for HTML + PDF and fedora-doc-utils for RPM | Mar 25 21:04 |
| Sparks | 5. Use f-doc-utils exclusively | Mar 25 21:04 |
| stickster | Because I *think* we could add needed support to the publican-fedora brand pacakge. | Mar 25 21:04 |
| stickster | *package. | Mar 25 21:04 |
| Sparks | I don't have a problem with forking the development at this point. | Mar 25 21:05 |
| quaid | jjmcd: iirc jfearn has stated that he'd love to not maintain the package | Mar 25 21:05 |
| laubersm | I like the idea of a FPC exception for F11 name with version and long term fix publican to allow no version number | Mar 25 21:05 |
| stickster | I don't think a fork is required, we could put needed support in the Makefile.fedora | Mar 25 21:05 |
| quaid | jjmcd: without that level of commitment from some general Fedoran, I fear we'll always be second citizens in the Publican audience | Mar 25 21:05 |
| ke4qqq | I am rapidly favoring the fork option. Especially if upstream considers these "silly" | Mar 25 21:05 |
| *stickster thinks we should not rush to using the word "fork" if people here simply aren't aware of what we can apply to the publican-fedora package. | Mar 25 21:06 | |
| jjmcd | I don't think the number is the only problem | Mar 25 21:06 |
| stickster | Let's put that term aside for a moment. | Mar 25 21:06 |
| Sparks | stickster: It's not in the makefile | Mar 25 21:06 |
| Sparks | stickster: It is in the core of Publican | Mar 25 21:06 |
| stickster | Sparks: Well, the thing creating the specfile is an XSL sheet, yes? | Mar 25 21:07 |
| Sparks | stickster: No idea. I don't remember where I pulled that line of code out and beat it with a hammer. | Mar 25 21:07 |
| Sparks | stickster: But if it were that easy, why all the problems four months later? | Mar 25 21:08 |
| stickster | So, as a fellow Docs guy, I'm not really comfortable with people yelling "Fork! Fork!" when we don't fully grok the technical stuff | Mar 25 21:08 |
| stickster | Because then it seems like we really don't know why we're forking. | Mar 25 21:08 |
| Sparks | Spoon! Spoon! | Mar 25 21:08 |
| stickster | heh | Mar 25 21:08 |
| jjmcd | But it does look to me, at least for F11, that option 4 is the straightest line | Mar 25 21:09 |
| stickster | jjmcd: The problem is that fedora-doc-utils won't work with Publican formatted materials, and vice versa. | Mar 25 21:09 |
| stickster | They are mutually incompatible. | Mar 25 21:09 |
| stickster | (at least, not without some hacking, which, if we're going to do it, we might as well try to do with Publican.) | Mar 25 21:09 |
| stickster | er, publican-fedora | Mar 25 21:10 |
| jjmcd | But since all we need is basically a specfile, is it really that big of a deal? | Mar 25 21:10 |
| Sparks | yeah, we need to get PDF action into fedora-doc-utils IF that is something we want to offer | Mar 25 21:10 |
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| stickster | I'll take a task of looking at Publican up through this weekend to see what we can fix. If I don't think it can be done, I should at least explain why to the list. | Mar 25 21:10 |
| jjmcd | Publican makes docs we can use, it just doesn't package them | Mar 25 21:10 |
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| *stickster notes that if jfearn is amenable to our taking over publican-fedora, we should try and implement fixes there. But if the architecture doesn't allow it, we move on. | Mar 25 21:11 | |
| stickster | Or at least, I will :-) | Mar 25 21:11 |
| Sparks | jjmcd: We make docs we can use... That last step is putting them in the hands of everyone else | Mar 25 21:11 |
| jjmcd | Yes, but all that really is is packaging | Mar 25 21:12 |
| *stickster has to bail, late | Mar 25 21:12 | |
| *laubersm too | Mar 25 21:12 | |
| jjmcd | ciao | Mar 25 21:12 |
| stickster | I'll catch up on the log and see what I can do with publican-fedora over the rest of the week | Mar 25 21:12 |
| Sparks | Okay, I think we should let stickster do some investigating and maybe he can tell us something next week. | Mar 25 21:12 |
| Tsagadai | option 6 is far easier | Mar 25 21:12 |
| Sparks | Anything else before we go back to the Beta Announcement? | Mar 25 21:13 |
| jjmcd | Mar 25 21:13 | |
| Sparks | yes? | Mar 25 21:14 |
| jjmcd | Is that something we want,and where | Mar 25 21:14 |
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| ke4qqq | yes | Mar 25 21:14 |
| Sparks | Good question. What are we going to do with a PDF? | Mar 25 21:14 |
| quaid | jjmcd: we want them for all docs, on docs.fp.o | Mar 25 21:14 |
| jjmcd | Personally, I like PDFs, but since we don't have them I don't see their place | Mar 25 21:14 |
| quaid | alongside tarball, html one page, etc. | Mar 25 21:14 |
| Sparks | quaid: In lieu of html? | Mar 25 21:14 |
| quaid | jjmcd: long requested feature | Mar 25 21:14 |
| jjmcd | OK, that would be good | Mar 25 21:14 |
| quaid | no | Mar 25 21:15 |
| quaid | alongside html | Mar 25 21:15 |
| quaid | ppl want to print the Installation Guide, etc. | Mar 25 21:15 |
| Sparks | +1 | Mar 25 21:15 |
| jjmcd | yepper | Mar 25 21:15 |
| Sparks | Okay, anything else? | Mar 25 21:16 |
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| ke4qqq | quaid: they might not this release :) | Mar 25 21:16 |
| jjmcd | because the IG is unhelpful? | Mar 25 21:16 |
| ke4qqq | because it's up to 172 pages | Mar 25 21:16 |
| jjmcd | That hard to install, huh | Mar 25 21:17 |
| Sparks | Okay... back to the announcement | Mar 25 21:17 |
| *Sparks has changed the topic to: Docs Project - Beta Announcement Part 2 | Mar 25 21:17 | |
| Sparks | Any other changes? | Mar 25 21:17 |
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| Sparks | I see jjmcd making a few changes | Mar 25 21:19 |
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| jjmcd | I still keep wondering about gcc. I feel like we should be warning ppl, but it doesn't seem right in an announcement | Mar 25 21:20 |
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| jjmcd | Do we need to talk about replacing HAL? | Mar 25 21:21 |
| jjmcd | Maybe for the geeks | Mar 25 21:21 |
| Sparks | the gcc thing still sounds weird | Mar 25 21:21 |
| ke4qqq | not replacing - but perhaps what replaced it | Mar 25 21:21 |
| Sparks | volume control model ??? | Mar 25 21:23 |
| ke4qqq | indeed!!! | Mar 25 21:23 |
| Sparks | Should that just be volume control? | Mar 25 21:23 |
| jjmcd | yeah | Mar 25 21:23 |
| *ke4qqq thought we were talking about going up to 11 | Mar 25 21:23 | |
| *jjmcd is still stressing over gcc ... ... | Mar 25 21:23 | |
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| Sparks | jjmcd: Is there anything in the RN about power management or "greeness"? | Mar 25 21:25 |
| jjmcd | ke4qqq - any better? | Mar 25 21:25 |
| jjmcd | I don't recall seeing anything | Mar 25 21:25 |
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| ke4qqq | worksforme | Mar 25 21:25 |
| ke4qqq | q | Mar 25 21:25 |
| Sparks | I thought there was some changes coming for powertop | Mar 25 21:25 |
| jjmcd | Nothing in the talking points | Mar 25 21:27 |
| Sparks | Make ext4 the default files system for anaconda-driven installs (replacing ext3). User should notice generally better performance, and benefit from things such as persistent preallocation when using updated torrent clients, and so forth. | Mar 25 21:27 |
| Sparks | and so forth? | Mar 25 21:27 |
| ke4qqq | torrent clients seems too much detail | Mar 25 21:28 |
| ke4qqq | how about better performance? | Mar 25 21:28 |
| ke4qqq | and end it there? | Mar 25 21:28 |
| jjmcd | There is a kind of motherhood and apple pie statement in the feature list about power | Mar 25 21:28 |
| ke4qqq | and so forth? | Mar 25 21:29 |
| ke4qqq | do my changes to ext4 rile anyones feathers? | Mar 25 21:29 |
| Sparks | I don't like the "and so forth" | Mar 25 21:29 |
| ke4qqq | well that disappeared with some other stuff | Mar 25 21:30 |
| Sparks | jjmcd: What is it? | Mar 25 21:30 |
| Sparks | ke4qqq: Remove generally? | Mar 25 21:30 |
| ke4qqq | ok | Mar 25 21:30 |
| jjmcd | Looking at the feature page for power management and it looks pretty good | Mar 25 21:30 |
| jjmcd | not so sure it will be easy to say in 25 wors or less | Mar 25 21:31 |
| Sparks | ke4qqq: how's that? | Mar 25 21:31 |
| Sparks | jjmcd: link? | Mar 25 21:31 |
| ke4qqq | why add read/write - one of the cool improvements is fsck time | Mar 25 21:31 |
| jjmcd | Features/Power_Management - sorry on another box | Mar 25 21:31 |
| ke4qqq | how about filesystem | Mar 25 21:31 |
| ke4qqq | ? | Mar 25 21:31 |
| ke4qqq | will is much stronger +1 | Mar 25 21:32 |
| Sparks | :) | Mar 25 21:33 |
| ke4qqq | am I crazy or does a not belong there? | Mar 25 21:33 |
| Sparks | YOU WILL! | Mar 25 21:33 |
| Sparks | where? | Mar 25 21:33 |
| ke4qqq | shall we move to #fedora-docs? | Mar 25 21:33 |
| ke4qqq | nm it's addressed now | Mar 25 21:33 |
| ke4qqq | the a part not the moving | Mar 25 21:33 |
| Sparks | I don't like ext4, still | Mar 25 21:33 |
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| Sparks | Anyone have anything else for the meeting? | Mar 25 21:35 |
| *Sparks has changed the topic to: Docs Project - Anything else? | Mar 25 21:35 | |
| Sparks | Thanks everyone for coming! | Mar 25 21:36 |
| Sparks | </meeting> | Mar 25 21:36 |