From Fedora Project Wiki
| Sparks | #startmeeting Release Notes Meeting | 15:05 |
|---|---|---|
| Sparks | #topic Roll Call | 15:05 |
| * Sparks | 15:05 | |
| jjmcd | Ack - I totally forgot about this ;-) | 15:06 |
| * rudi is here | 15:06 | |
| Sparks | jjmcd: Yeah, me too. I was trying to figure out why rudi was still up! | 15:06 |
| rudi | lolz | 15:06 |
| * jjmcd was blogging on yesterday's meeting | 15:07 | |
| Sparks | #topic Last meeting | 15:08 |
| Sparks | Okay from the last meeting I see... | 15:08 |
| Sparks | that we agreed to use Publican for everything | 15:08 |
| Sparks | that we needed three documents (right?) | 15:08 |
| jjmcd | 3 formats? | 15:09 |
| Sparks | three documents | 15:09 |
| Sparks | 1) "normal" RNs | 15:09 |
| Sparks | 2) "pretty" RNs (one-page by Marketing) | 15:09 |
| Sparks | 3) things to know about upgrading | 15:10 |
| jjmcd | Ahh yes, OK | 15:10 |
| Sparks | The agenda from last week was: | 15:10 |
| Sparks | 1. How to improve on the F12 RNs | 15:10 |
| Sparks | 2. What products need to be generated. | 15:10 |
| Sparks | 3. Using Publican for the RNs | 15:10 |
| Sparks | 4. Training people to write beats. | 15:11 |
| Sparks | Anything else we need to discuss? | 15:11 |
| jjmcd | Perhaps today we should address products | 15:11 |
| Sparks | okay | 15:12 |
| Sparks | #topic RN Products | 15:12 |
| jjmcd | We have agreement on 3 and last week we hit 1 | 15:12 |
| Sparks | Yes, and I've successfully gotten a Publican package into the repo now | 15:12 |
| Sparks | So there are a few tweeks that need to be made but they aren't difficult | 15:12 |
| jjmcd | I think there is the question of what to produce for online, how to present it, and what is actually in fedora-release-notes.rpm | 15:13 |
| Sparks | Yes | 15:13 |
| jjmcd | Yeah, getting the rpm actually built isn't a big deal IMO | 15:13 |
| Sparks | So, IMO, we should provide the RN online in HTML, HTML-Single, and PDF | 15:13 |
| rudi | +1 -- I really don't think anyone will miss ZIP and TGZ if they're not there... | 15:14 |
| Sparks | jjmcd: ? | 15:14 |
| jjmcd | But my question is what does that look like? The example you had wouldn't work for RN | 15:14 |
| Sparks | What does what look like? | 15:14 |
| jjmcd | The web page where the user selects what he wants | 15:14 |
| Sparks | Ahh | 15:15 |
| rudi | I think that ryanlerch has been working on that a little | 15:15 |
| Sparks | Well, it will probably (hopefully) be in Zikula by then so this will be a moot point but... | 15:15 |
| rudi | Trying to work out how to tidy up the index page a bit | 15:15 |
| Sparks | I made a table that can be seen at docs.fedoraproject.org/security-guide. | 15:15 |
| Sparks | It isn't complete but is the basis for not having a complicated jumble | 15:16 |
| jjmcd | Does that really change anything? The user still needs to be faced with an incredible array of choices. | 15:16 |
| jjmcd | Well, that isn't terrubly useful | 15:16 |
| rudi | (ryanlerch is ECS's graphics go-to-guy) | 15:16 |
| Sparks | Actually use http://docs.fedoraproject.org/selinux-user-guide/ | 15:16 |
| Sparks | My table is jacked up, apparently | 15:16 |
| jjmcd | the security guide only has a few languages, not 12 releases, 42 languages, live versus now | 15:16 |
| Sparks | Lots of choices isn't a problem. Being able to clearly see the choices is the problem | 15:17 |
| Sparks | why 12 releases? | 15:17 |
| jjmcd | We keep RN's online for past releases | 15:17 |
| jjmcd | 1512 products per release | 15:17 |
| Sparks | Hold on... | 15:18 |
| rudi | I think it's really important to have that archival material important; but does it need to be right there in the face of the user who's probably looking for the latest stuff? | 15:18 |
| jjmcd | You have like a dozen for security-guide | 15:18 |
| Sparks | We can group the different releases into their own tables and provide links to those at the top of the page... | 15:18 |
| jjmcd | rudi: I'll buy that | 15:18 |
| Sparks | but how do you get 1512 products per release? | 15:18 |
| jjmcd | whoops, I added in the 12, forgot the 2 | 15:19 |
| jjmcd | OK, only 252 | 15:19 |
| Sparks | How do you get 252? | 15:19 |
| jjmcd | 42 langs times 3 formats times 2 (we keep the original for live as well as most reent) | 15:20 |
| Sparks | Well, if we sort by language and each language has three options then it shouldn't be complicated. | 15:20 |
| Sparks | sort language alphabetically | 15:21 |
| jjmcd | I'm not sure we really need that but it's what we've been doing | 15:21 |
| Sparks | No, what I've seen is a jumble of language codes which is NOT user friendly | 15:21 |
| jjmcd | Hmmmm, with help from L10N we could have a language selection leading to a table of releases/formats | 15:21 |
| Sparks | There is a BIG difference between the release-notes and the selinux-user-guide page | 15:21 |
| jjmcd | Yes, hundreds of docs verses a handful | 15:22 |
| Sparks | But the way the RN languages are presented is not good | 15:22 |
| Sparks | it is very confusing | 15:22 |
| jjmcd | I agree, but RN's presented like SG would be much worse | 15:22 |
| Sparks | You can add every language you want to under the SELinux and everything will be easy to find | 15:23 |
| jjmcd | I'm not really thrilled with a 1000 line long list | 15:23 |
| Sparks | But it wouldn't be 1000 lines | 15:24 |
| Sparks | just 42 | 15:24 |
| Sparks | sorted alphabetically by language | 15:24 |
| jjmcd | So you choose the release on a separate page? | 15:24 |
| Sparks | We'd put each release in it's own table to break it up | 15:24 |
| Sparks | nah, just stack the tables with links to the table at the top of the page or something | 15:25 |
| jjmcd | Oh, no, a link to previous releases which looks like the current, that might work | 15:25 |
| Sparks | but you could do separate pages | 15:25 |
| rudi | Or current-2 on the main page, and everything else on another page | 15:25 |
| Sparks | sure | 15:25 |
| Sparks | Might be interesting to break them all up on different pages just to see the hits | 15:26 |
| jjmcd | Yeah | 15:26 |
| Sparks | Of course this is a near-pointless conversation if we do get Zikula stood up before then | 15:27 |
| jjmcd | Why? We still have the question as to how to present it | 15:27 |
| Sparks | Yeah, but we might have a completely different set of ways to present it then | 15:27 |
| Sparks | drop down menus and other sexy things | 15:27 |
| jjmcd | Well, I haven't played with Zikula enough, but it doesn't seem to make that much difference. Personally, I'm mostly hoping to get away from that stupid CVS ;-)) | 15:28 |
| Sparks | Well, I think Zikula will automate a few things for us. | 15:29 |
| Sparks | And we won't be waiting for hours while the docs.fp.o site updates | 15:29 |
| jjmcd | The release notes pages is already php, we could do drop downs and other goodies if we wanted | 15:30 |
| jjmcd | But it is kind of a pain to do anything when you have a bunch of character sets you can't read | 15:30 |
| Sparks | We could... I'm just not that talented anymore. If someone wants to do it I say go for it. | 15:30 |
| Sparks | Yes | 15:30 |
| rudi | I might forward this conversation to ryan when I see him in a few hours :) | 15:31 |
| Sparks | :) | 15:31 |
| jjmcd | OK, I'll go play with something on my local zikula instance and see if a vison comes down from the heavens, but a single list of langs with a link to old stuff sounds like good possibility | 15:31 |
| Sparks | Okay | 15:32 |
| Sparks | rudi: good for you? | 15:32 |
| rudi | All good | 15:33 |
| Sparks | #agreed a single list of langs with a link to old stuff sounds good for presentation on docs.fp.o | 15:33 |
| Sparks | jjmcd: What's next? | 15:33 |
| jjmcd | OK, so what about f-r-n.rpm? Are we going to try to separate by lang? | 15:33 |
| rudi | Before we move on.... | 15:33 |
| Sparks | rudi: Go ahead | 15:33 |
| rudi | I thought that we should probably talk about the "minor docs" | 15:34 |
| jjmcd | Yeah | 15:34 |
| * Sparks has always been confused by the "minor docs" | 15:34 | |
| rudi | These are currently packaged with the release notes, but I really don't think that they belong there. | 15:34 |
| Sparks | What are they? | 15:34 |
| Sparks | And why are they there? | 15:34 |
| jjmcd | These are the docs that can't drink | 15:34 |
| rudi | lolz | 15:34 |
| rudi | Readme | 15:34 |
| Sparks | Ha! | 15:35 |
| rudi | About Fedora | 15:35 |
| rudi | Readme-burning-isos | 15:35 |
| jjmcd | readme, readme-burning-isos, homepage, etc | 15:35 |
| rudi | readme-live-images | 15:35 |
| rudi | yeah | 15:35 |
| Sparks | I understand the "About Fedora". Why the others? | 15:35 |
| rudi | Legacy, I presume | 15:35 |
| jjmcd | About-Fedora shows up in yelp, but I wonder how many people ever trip across the others | 15:35 |
| jjmcd | Should they be in yelp too? | 15:36 |
| Sparks | Well... if we aren't presenting them in yelp why are they there? | 15:36 |
| rudi | In some ways, their scope makes them look lke ideal wiki contenders | 15:36 |
| Sparks | Couldn't we integrate it into a guide better? | 15:36 |
| jjmcd | Currently they are text | 15:36 |
| rudi | But static docs lend themselves better to localisation | 15:36 |
| rudi | and these docs have been *extensively* localised | 15:37 |
| rudi | (I presume because they're short and therefore attractive projects) | 15:37 |
| jjmcd | Perhaps about-fedora contains links to these docs instead of putting them in the rpm | 15:37 |
| Sparks | Well, can we either make them guides onto themselves or fold them into another guide | 15:37 |
| Sparks | jjmcd: +1 | 15:37 |
| rudi | jjmcd -- at the very most. | 15:38 |
| jjmcd | homepage is a different Q tho | 15:38 |
| Sparks | What is homepage? | 15:38 |
| jjmcd | What you get when you open Galeon | 15:38 |
| jjmcd | or maybe its epiphany | 15:39 |
| rudi | A page that loads in certain browsers if you start the browser without a net connection | 15:39 |
| Sparks | Ahhh | 15:39 |
| jjmcd | In at least one of them, you get it even if you have a connection | 15:39 |
| rudi | Heh | 15:39 |
| jjmcd | I think the connection thing used to be the case for firefox but isn't anymore | 15:39 |
| * Sparks notes that FF starts http://start.fedoraproject.org | 15:39 | |
| rudi | I think it's awful; all it can do is confuse users into thinking that they're online, when they're really not | 15:39 |
| Sparks | Well, I think it should be separate from the RNs | 15:40 |
| rudi | Sparks +1 | 15:40 |
| Sparks | I don't like bundling all this stuff together | 15:40 |
| jjmcd | We need to understand what browsers use it and why | 15:40 |
| rudi | And if Galeon or something else needs it; it should belong to that package | 15:41 |
| Sparks | We need to identify the something else | 15:41 |
| jjmcd | If it's one browser I agree, but I think there are multiples | 15:41 |
| rudi | Or should be packaged up as a dependency for whoever needs/wants it. | 15:41 |
| rudi | (Or they should get their browsers to point to something more useful... this is 2009....) | 15:41 |
| jjmcd | Exactly, rudi | 15:41 |
| Sparks | yes | 15:42 |
| jjmcd | But we need to identify the affected browsers and contact their developers | 15:42 |
| Sparks | jjmcd: Want to handle that? | 15:42 |
| jjmcd | I guess I can do that | 15:42 |
| rudi | As for "About Fedora"... | 15:43 |
| Sparks | #action jjmcd to determine the affected browsers and contact the developers for the homepage project | 15:43 |
| rudi | (sorry -- am I getting too far ahead?) | 15:44 |
| jjmcd | I've wanted an excise to see what browsers we have | 15:44 |
| jjmcd | lynx uses it even if you are connected | 15:44 |
| Sparks | jjmcd: Yeah | 15:46 |
| Sparks | rudi: Go ahead with the "About Fedora' | 15:46 |
| rudi | I can see the importance of that if it shows up in Yelp; but it doesn't really have anything to do with the RNs | 15:47 |
| rudi | I just wonder if there's a better home for it... | 15:47 |
| rudi | (With yelp itself if that's the only place people will ever see it?) | 15:48 |
| rudi | (And who would miss it if it wasn't even there?) | 15:50 |
| jjmcd | Well, mostly it's recruiting | 15:51 |
| Sparks | I think it should be packaged separately | 15:52 |
| Sparks | I think it has its place in the OS but it is separate from the RN | 15:52 |
| rudi | +1 | 15:52 |
| jjmcd | f-r-n.rpm currently contains all the OS docs installed on the users system. Do we buy a lot by breaking it up into multiple packages? | 15:53 |
| rudi | Well, it may only be two packages (three if we have to keep homepage) | 15:53 |
| Sparks | Well, that's less to download when there is an update of one piece | 15:53 |
| jjmcd | Yeah, but about-fedora and homepage are pretty tiny | 15:54 |
| jjmcd | We will add to the space we take on the live cd by breaking them up | 15:54 |
| Sparks | How much space? Is it negligable? | 15:55 |
| jjmcd | Its pretty small, but then every byte on the LiveCD is precious | 15:55 |
| Sparks | I agree | 15:55 |
| Sparks | Who is in charge of the LiveCD project? | 15:55 |
| jjmcd | Dunno? Is that Jeroen? | 15:55 |
| Sparks | I don't know. But if that is our blocker we should contact those folks | 15:56 |
| jjmcd | I gotta boogie here pretty soon, but I will go ahead and run a test to see what the price actually is | 15:57 |
| rudi | Well, if we can at least get the Live-Images and Burning-ISOs docs out of there this time around, that's a start :/ | 15:57 |
| Sparks | DavidZeuthen | 15:57 |
| jjmcd | that's a new name to me. I think RelEng spends a lot of time stressing over it each release | 15:57 |
| Sparks | rudi: That's true. removing those docs will reduce the overall size that we've been pushing | 15:57 |
| rudi | ...and, more importantly, complexity and redundancy... | 15:58 |
| Sparks | jjmcd: Jeremy Katz and Douglas McClendon too | 15:58 |
| Sparks | rudi: Yes | 15:58 |
| jjmcd | Maybe we add to Yelp an "Additional DOcumentation" topic that has links to install, security, etc | 15:59 |
| Sparks | #action jjmcd to determine space differentials between the combined RN and the individual files in RPMs | 15:59 |
| Sparks | jjmcd: +1 | 15:59 |
| Sparks | #idea break up all documents that are currently packaged as f-r-n.rpm into separate RPMs | 16:00 |
| rudi | #idea -- don't package any that we don't know that we have to | 16:00 |
| Sparks | #idea move Readme-burning-isos and readme into a guide | 16:00 |
| Sparks | anything else we need to capture? | 16:00 |
| rudi | I think that was it :) | 16:01 |
| jjmcd | OK, I gotta go, but I have a few action items (which I needed like a hole in the head) | 16:01 |
| rudi | That was my "wo minutes of minor docs hate" | 16:01 |
| Sparks | :) | 16:01 |
| rudi | jjmcd -- before you run | 16:01 |
| jjmcd | ? | 16:01 |
| rudi | Just a heads up that I branched f12 tonight | 16:01 |
| jjmcd | cool | 16:01 |
| rudi | (In case you didn't see) | 16:01 |
| jjmcd | appreciate it | 16:01 |
| rudi | And loaded in some dummy content that you can pull down and build :) | 16:01 |
| jjmcd | OK, so master is sstill F11, but we will change that after the next update to get in changes and new translations | 16:02 |
| Sparks | jjmcd: I'm going to do a blog on the beats here in a minute | 16:02 |
| rudi | Yeah | 16:02 |
| jjmcd | good deal | 16:02 |
| Sparks | jjmcd: Is there a link to the beats for f12? | 16:02 |
| jjmcd | wiki/Documentation_Beats | 16:03 |
| Sparks | cool | 16:03 |
| Sparks | anything else? | 16:03 |
| rudi | Not from me :) | 16:03 |
| Sparks | jjmcd: you? | 16:03 |
| jjmcd | nope | 16:03 |
| rudi | We seem to average one agenda item per hour :) | 16:03 |
| Sparks | rudi: Yeah but we do get a lot done | 16:04 |
| Sparks | :) | 16:04 |
| Sparks | Okay... | 16:04 |
| Sparks | #endmeeting | 16:04 |